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Old 10-31-2022, 07:52 PM
 
18,218 posts, read 16,829,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57 View Post
Awww shucks, thrill. Yer makin' me blush! Sparring with you (and a few others) here certainly keeps me on my toes!


LOL!


To some degree, yes. I mean, I know that people use these generalizations like "some" or "many" or even "most" to drive their point home. Used to drive me nuts when my late husband would say something like, "EVERYONE says..." only for me to press him on who "everyone" was. Turned out to be ONE other person. So admittedly, it's kind of a sore spot for me.



Court cases have been won before with way less evidence that we have for Jesus. While I wouldn't say that we have "mountains" of evidence, I'd say that the evidence that we do have, is quite compelling for --dare I say it---"many."

Well, Mink you keep me on my toes too. I'm the better heretic because of your kindly efforts. Thank you.
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Old 10-31-2022, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Hickville USA
5,889 posts, read 3,766,585 times
Reputation: 28541
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
You, again, as usual, make the false, disrespectful and insulting claim that Christianity is the Theology of the "dumb and uneducated and gullible".
Most of greatest minds to ever exist were Religious/Christian...and Christianity is growing the most where education is the best.
I don't know if this is allowed anymore but I think Thrill is describing 'sheeple'. I tend to lean more towards what he said as being true, although I wouldn't have put it like that. The less education and environmental aspects ring true with the Fundies ideas of what 'their followers' will actually....follow. They target a certain audience, and making outlandish promises of golden streets and living forever with their leader in wealth and happiness for all of eternity?

Ok, I get that. I fell for it too. My question is, why exactly can we not have that now? Oh right, original sin! But wait, there is no sin, only the love of god. According to some Christians who aren't considered Christians at all by other Christians. So, you see, it's too irreconcilable. All of Christianity makes no sense, to me.

And yes, you present that "Christianity is growing" point a lot but it does not compute. I know you like to tell yourself it's growing, but it is in decline, the numbers don't lie if you use the right resources. It does appear that the more knowledge we gain, the less we believe in fairy tales.
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Old 10-31-2022, 09:57 PM
 
18,218 posts, read 16,829,913 times
Reputation: 7520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth View Post
I don't know if this is allowed anymore but I think Thrill is describing 'sheeple'. I tend to lean more towards what he said as being true, although I wouldn't have put it like that. The less education and environmental aspects ring true with the Fundies ideas of what 'their followers' will actually....follow. They target a certain audience, and making outlandish promises of golden streets and living forever with their leader in wealth and happiness for all of eternity?

Ok, I get that. I fell for it too. My question is, why exactly can we not have that now? Oh right, original sin! But wait, there is no sin, only the love of god. According to some Christians who aren't considered Christians at all by other Christians. So, you see, it's too irreconcilable. All of Christianity makes no sense, to me.

And yes, you present that "Christianity is growing" point a lot but it does not compute. I know you like to tell yourself it's growing, but it is in decline, the numbers don't lie if you use the right resources. It does appear that the more knowledge we gain, the less we believe in fairy tales.

Thanks for the accolade, Northsouth. You took off the rose-colored glasses and can now see the Big Lie in Christianity that fundies are blinded to. We could construct a giant flowchart of everything that is wrong with its theology and dogma. From the very beginning


Where is the proof for Jesus? In the gospels. But why not secular history? Because God wants you to believe in Jesus by faith without secular evidence. Why is there so much suffering in the world? Because Adam sinned in the garden of Eden and brought sin into the universe. But that had nothing to do with me, that was 6000 years ago. Doesn't matter. All inherited Adam's sin. Why doesn't God answer my prayers? He did answer your prayers, he said "No". Why doesn't God heal my sickness, I had the church lay hands on me just like James said to do and he said I would be healed. God isn't a vending machine. But God has NEVER answered a single prayer. Then you have sin in your life, that's why he doesn't listen to you.



Always, ALWAYS the Christians have some cockamamie excuse for why Christianity doesn't work. It's your fault or it's Satan's fault or it's the guy next door's fault but it's NEVER God's fault. Christianity works--except when it doesn't.
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Old 11-01-2022, 08:28 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,623,789 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth View Post
I don't know if this is allowed anymore but I think Thrill is describing 'sheeple'. I tend to lean more towards what he said as being true, although I wouldn't have put it like that. The less education and environmental aspects ring true with the Fundies ideas of what 'their followers' will actually....follow. They target a certain audience, and making outlandish promises of golden streets and living forever with their leader in wealth and happiness for all of eternity?

Ok, I get that. I fell for it too. My question is, why exactly can we not have that now? Oh right, original sin! But wait, there is no sin, only the love of god. According to some Christians who aren't considered Christians at all by other Christians. So, you see, it's too irreconcilable. All of Christianity makes no sense, to me.

And yes, you present that "Christianity is growing" point a lot but it does not compute. I know you like to tell yourself it's growing, but it is in decline, the numbers don't lie if you use the right resources. It does appear that the more knowledge we gain, the less we believe in fairy tales.
Thrillobyte is putting forth the erroneous, (but common favorite) of the Anti-Religionists...that "Religion is the concept of the dumb & desperate", and "It is shrinking. Dramatically".
The attempt is to insult the Religious as being "stupid & gullible"...and that education is the antidote and/or inoculant for that.

All of that is wrong...and, you are correct, the numbers DON'T lie.
Noting outlier areas that go against the global trend is a favorite of the Anti-Religionists...but Religion really is growing in the world:
https://www.news24.com/News24/atheis...cline-20160316
That link provides more links to help inform/educate as to the facts/truth of the matter.

Religion/Christianity is growing the most where education is at its best:
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/201...ation-by-2030s

And education and economic progress leads toward religion, not away from it:
https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheis...ce_of_religion

One needs to study and research the facts, and assess them without personal bias and emotional headtrips to be able to learn and gain real knowledge about the matter.
If they do...they may stop saying erroneous (and rude/insulting) things like "Religion/Christianity is dramatically shrinking, and it is associated with the dumb & gullible".
And, hopefully, they will stop using rude/insulting terms such as "fairytales" (a term associated with children that have yet to learn) when referring to the deep, genius, metaphorical and allegorical works of Theological literary art.
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Old 11-01-2022, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,802 posts, read 13,350,400 times
Reputation: 9809
I just ran across a new discovery in early Christian literature, a book called Jason & Papiscus that is mostly lost but a fragment has been discovered recently. The claimed author is Luke -- yes, he supposedly wrote something other than the gospel named after him and the Acts of the Apostles. It is a dialog between two early Christians.

https://medium.com/belover/did-chris...t-ae2fa5d520f0

For purposes of this thread I think the following quotes from an interview with the person who made the discovery are interesting (bold text is mine):

Quote:
I ask Tolley a few questions. Does he view the fragment as being written in Luke’s style of writing?
He replies: “I do, but it would be difficult to prove Luke had a style.”
A section in his paper, he says, had analyzed the vocabulary of the fragment as having words that, in the New Testament, were only found in Luke’s writing. He was encouraged to take it out.
Scholars avoid the evidence of Luke’s authorship, he thinks, “just to avoid controversy.”
He adds:
“My experience in openly challenging dating or textual aspects of the canonical Christian writings is that it just devolves into pointless squabbling with scholars who see themselves as white knights defending the orthodoxy.”
This is an interesting window into the politics of dating and authorship determinations.

As for Jason & Papiscus itself, the discovered fragment deals with why Christians revere Sunday and not the Sabbath. Some of the views expressed are in conflict with modern orthodoxy, but this just reflects the diversity of pre-Nicea Christianity. In particular, Jesus is said to be present at creation, and the OT is said to be entirely symbolic / metaphorical and not real stories. The newness of Christianity is emphasized, which is probably the main reason this book has not seen the light of day very much: modern orthodoxy rides the coattails of the OT and de-emphasizes was was, in the early days, the newness of Christianity. Rather, it was the fulfillment of a much more ancient religion. This overcame the bias of the ancients against new beliefs -- 'nothing new can be true or we'd already know it' was the aphorism.
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Old 11-01-2022, 10:13 AM
 
63,538 posts, read 39,828,572 times
Reputation: 7815
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I just ran across a new discovery in early Christian literature, a book called Jason & Papiscus that is mostly lost but a fragment has been discovered recently. The claimed author is Luke -- yes, he supposedly wrote something other than the gospel named after him and the Acts of the Apostles. It is a dialog between two early Christians.

https://medium.com/belover/did-chris...t-ae2fa5d520f0

For purposes of this thread I think the following quotes from an interview with the person who made the discovery are interesting (bold text is mine):

This is an interesting window into the politics of dating and authorship determinations.

As for Jason & Papiscus itself, the discovered fragment deals with why Christians revere Sunday and not the Sabbath. Some of the views expressed are in conflict with modern orthodoxy, but this just reflects the diversity of pre-Nicea Christianity. In particular, Jesus is said to be present at creation, and the OT is said to be entirely symbolic / metaphorical and not real stories. The newness of Christianity is emphasized, which is probably the main reason this book has not seen the light of day very much: modern orthodoxy rides the coattails of the OT and de-emphasizes was was, in the early days, the newness of Christianity. Rather, it was the fulfillment of a much more ancient religion. This overcame the bias of the ancients against new beliefs -- 'nothing new can be true or we'd already know it' was the aphorism.
Thank you, mordant. It is important for people to recognize that most of what is assumed in Christian orthodoxy was developed and is hidden in the mists of time. This makes THEIR interpretation of Jesus and what He did subject to their biases and preferences in that era! They cleverly made the "no private interpretation" in response to what they deemed heresies to protect their interpretations. It has been a travesty of human ignorance perversity, and superstition that continues to this very day, IMO.
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Old 11-01-2022, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,624 posts, read 4,908,504 times
Reputation: 2078
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Just the Hebrews text I quoted which lays it out in spades.
Hebrews does not mention the destruction of the temple. It talks about the sacrifices that were made at the temple, so the temple existed when Hebrews was written.
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Old 11-01-2022, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,624 posts, read 4,908,504 times
Reputation: 2078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
Well there is a lack of secular historical evidence, not disputing that.
It’s not like having Caesars head on some old Roman coins or something.
However the New Testament has enough factual information, and credible witnesses, to suggest it is not just storytelling.
Lol, no.
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Old 11-01-2022, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,624 posts, read 4,908,504 times
Reputation: 2078
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I just ran across a new discovery in early Christian literature, a book called Jason & Papiscus that is mostly lost but a fragment has been discovered recently. The claimed author is Luke -- yes, he supposedly wrote something other than the gospel named after him and the Acts of the Apostles. It is a dialog between two early Christians.

https://medium.com/belover/did-chris...t-ae2fa5d520f0

For purposes of this thread I think the following quotes from an interview with the person who made the discovery are interesting (bold text is mine):



This is an interesting window into the politics of dating and authorship determinations.

As for Jason & Papiscus itself, the discovered fragment deals with why Christians revere Sunday and not the Sabbath. Some of the views expressed are in conflict with modern orthodoxy, but this just reflects the diversity of pre-Nicea Christianity. In particular, Jesus is said to be present at creation, and the OT is said to be entirely symbolic / metaphorical and not real stories. The newness of Christianity is emphasized, which is probably the main reason this book has not seen the light of day very much: modern orthodoxy rides the coattails of the OT and de-emphasizes was was, in the early days, the newness of Christianity. Rather, it was the fulfillment of a much more ancient religion. This overcame the bias of the ancients against new beliefs -- 'nothing new can be true or we'd already know it' was the aphorism.
An interesting find, and if it was by Luke, and the dating of circa 140 AD is valid, that would put Luke in the middle of the second century AD.

And some interesting cosmic Jesus ideas.
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Old 11-01-2022, 11:59 AM
 
18,218 posts, read 16,829,913 times
Reputation: 7520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Hebrews does not mention the destruction of the temple. It talks about the sacrifices that were made at the temple, so the temple existed when Hebrews was written.

That's true, it does not mention the destruction. As I study it I think it could go either way.



" He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. " Hebrews 7:27



No need to offer sacrifices implies there's no place remaining to offer the sacrifices--the destruction of the temple. He [died] once and for all when he offered up himself implies Jesus became a one-time sacrifice that would last for all time. This couldn't happen unless there wasn't a temple to make the annual sacrifices for the sins of the Jews and perhaps the gentiles by then.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 11-01-2022 at 12:20 PM..
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