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It appears so. Christians and even phetaroi don't like the word, "proof" and he's supposedly an atheist. But check the wiktionary for "proof" and the first synonyms that shows up is "evidence". So should I use evidence instead? Let's try "evidence". But Thoreau and BaptistFundie won't reply to that either because they painted themselves into a corner--they haven't got squat to prove on a secular level that their Jesus avatar was real. They keep forgetting that "secular" is the only one scholars care about. I could also use "authentication" "verification" "corroboration" "validation" " attestation" and a few others but it wouldn't make a bit of difference to Thoreau or Baptist. But it's worth a try, I suppose:
BaptistFundie:
Do you have a single iota of secular evidence Jesus was real to offer us?
Thoreau
Do you have a single iota of secular evidence Jesus was real to offer us?
You all watch. I'll wait until the 2nd Coming to get a response. Why? Because they have no secular evidence Jesus existed and they know it.
Big deal. You have eliminated as NOT secular the contemporaneous writings that were CHOSEN by a religion. There is no other way to separate them from what you are calling "secular" in that era!
Big deal. You have eliminated as NOT secular the contemporaneous writings that were CHOSEN by a religion. There is no other way to separate them from what you are calling "secular" in that era!
That's not true, Mystic. Christians have gotten a free ride on the Bible as total evidence for Jesus for millennia and it's time the free ride ended because we live in a completely different age now from when the RCC ruled with an iron fist during the first 1500 years CE. It was the Age of Reason that put an end to the RCC's rule because enlightened men started looking for evidence outside the Bible of Jesus' existence and couldn't find any, but of course that was with their limited resources back then. Today we have the Internet and information travels at the speed of light. People all over the world are reading this thread right now and telling their friends, "Hey, there's a dude on CD that says he can prove Jesus never existed. Let's check." And behold! They check for themselves just like I did 10 years ago and find that I'm right. The emperor has no clothes! Christians like BF and Thoreau and Mike Way hate that because they don't want their god exposed as a fake. And who can blame them--they have invested their lives in a person that history cannot prove ever lived. Christians don't want to believe that everything they've invested in Christianity has gone up in smoke. And I don't blame them--I was once in their position, having invested 60 years of time, money and sweat in Christianity only to find it was a complete waste.
People, especially Christians and progressives like yourself need to understand that the Bible is not proof or evidence or corroboration or verification or whatever word that's acceptable to you that Jesus lived because it isn't. The Bible is a theological document--an attestation of faith in a divine figure that never lived. The Bible, particularly the gospels consist of fictional characters placed within a historic setting--no different from Gone With The Wind. We have Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara placed in the Civil War, a real event with real people like General Grant and Davis and Lee but Butler and O'hara never lived just like Jesus the god man and the apostles never lived.
The Bible is fictional people placed within a historic setting, that's point no 1.
Point no 2: search the secular record for these people the Christians claim were real and you come up completely empty. There isn't a single non-controversial entry into the secular record for Jesus for the first 200 years after Jesus. That's mind-boggling for a myth that grew to be the most famous, most recognizable and most prominent "person" who ever lived---all thanks to the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their complete control of everything religious and secular. Anything and anyone that opposed Jesus they burned and murdered and anything that supported Jesus they allowed to continue. But today we know through the Internet that there isn't anything in the secular record that supports the claim that Jesus was real. The fact that millions of Americans and Europeans and other 1st World countries are falling away from Christianity is due to the Internet. The two are intertwined. Don't blame me, I'm only the messenger. I'm only reporting here what I read from secular Biblical scholars who have concluded after decades of study that the Jesus of the gospels never lived.
Jesus as a No-Show in History
There are many technical issues that historians must grapple with in determining whether some personage is historical, or fictitious. One is whether the Biblical gospels can be regarded as historical sources.
In general, historians discount written sources that were committed to paper more than a century after the events they describe. Moreover, they prefer the authorship to be clearly established and for the writer to have a direct connection to what is recorded.
The Biblical gospels do not cut it as history in these terms. Only St. Paul is thought to qualify in chronological terms. Yet, Paul had almost nothing to say about Jesus as a man and seems to have conceptualized him as a rarefied celestial being.
Big deal. You have eliminated as NOT secular the contemporaneous writings that were CHOSEN by a religion. There is no other way to separate them from what you are calling "secular" in that era!
That's not true, Mystic. Christians have gotten a free ride on the Bible as total evidence for Jesus for millennia and it's time the free ride ended because we live in a completely different age now from when the RCC ruled with an iron fist during the first 1500 years CE. It was the Age of Reason that put an end to the RCC's rule because enlightened men started looking for evidence outside the Bible of Jesus' existence and couldn't find any, but of course that was with their limited resources back then. Today we have the Internet and information travels at the speed of light. People all over the world are reading this thread right now and telling their friends, "Hey, there's a dude on CD that says he can prove Jesus never existed. Let's check." And behold! They check for themselves just like I did 10 years ago and find that I'm right. The emperor has no clothes! Christians like BF and Thoreau and Mike Way hate that because they don't want their god exposed as a fake. And who can blame them--they have invested their lives in a person that history cannot prove ever lived. Christians don't want to believe that everything they've invested in Christianity has gone up in smoke. And I don't blame them--I was once in their position, having invested 60 years of time, money and sweat in Christianity only to find it was a complete waste.
People, especially Christians and progressives like yourself need to understand that the Bible is not proof or evidence or corroboration or verification or whatever word that's acceptable to you that Jesus lived because it isn't. The Bible is a theological document--an attestation of faith in a divine figure that never lived. The Bible, particularly the gospels consist of fictional characters placed within a historic setting--no different from Gone With The Wind. We have Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara placed in the Civil War, a real event with real people like General Grant and Davis and Lee but Butler and O'hara never lived just like Jesus the god man and the apostles never lived.
The Bible is fictional people placed within a historic setting, that's point no 1.
Point no 2: search the secular record for these people the Christians claim were real and you come up completely empty. There isn't a single non-controversial entry into the secular record for Jesus for the first 200 years after Jesus. That's mind-boggling for a myth that grew to be the most famous, most recognizable and most prominent "person" who ever lived---all thanks to the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their complete control of everything religious and secular. Anything and anyone that opposed Jesus they burned and murdered and anything that supported Jesus they allowed to continue. But today we know through the Internet that there isn't anything in the secular record that supports the claim that Jesus was real. The fact that millions of Americans and Europeans and other 1st World countries are falling away from Christianity is due to the Internet. The two are intertwined. Don't blame me, I'm only the messenger. I'm only reporting here what I read from secular Biblical scholars who have concluded after decades of study that the Jesus of the gospels never lived.
Jesus as a No-Show in History
There are many technical issues that historians must grapple with in determining whether some personage is historical, or fictitious. One is whether the Biblical gospels can be regarded as historical sources.
In general, historians discount written sources that were committed to paper more than a century after the events they describe. Moreover, they prefer the authorship to be clearly established and for the writer to have a direct connection to what is recorded.
The Biblical gospels do not cut it as history in these terms. Only St. Paul is thought to qualify in chronological terms. Yet, Paul had almost nothing to say about Jesus as a man and seems to have conceptualized him as a rarefied celestial being.
People know because they feel it and once they know it, they can't unknow it. It lays within their spiritual sense, also known as their 6th sense. The Bible is an oral history and tells of how people made sense of their world, both personal and political. imo, no one has ever found Christ in the Bible. What they have found are people within whom they can relate to in their experience today ... It's a history the never changes, no matter the century and it never grows old, but always remains the same. From those words, there is Christ. Through Christ, the world makes sense.
I have a theory about atheist. It is my belief they don't want to know and they won't give their spiritual sense the light of day ... However, everything and everyone serves a purpose under God. So in the grand scheme of all that was, is, or will be, it really doesn't matter what we do within our lives, personal or political. His will is served.
btw, I'm still waiting on the enlightened to show up. They say we've been through that era, however, I have yet to see evidence of it. What I see is the evidence of the principle law of the universe, cause and effect. What we sow, we will also reap; our rewards matching that of our service.
People know because they feel it and once they know it, they can't unknow it. It lays within their spiritual sense, also known as their 6th sense. The Bible is an oral history and tells of how people made sense of their world, both personal and political. imo, no one has ever found Christ in the Bible. What they have found are people within whom they can relate to in their experience today ... It's a history the never changes, no matter the century and it never grows old, but always remains the same. From those words, there is Christ. Through Christ, the world makes sense.
I have a theory about atheist. It is my belief they don't want to know and they won't give their spiritual sense the light of day ... However, everything and everyone serves a purpose under God. So in the grand scheme of all that was, is, or will be, it really doesn't matter what we do within our lives, personal or political. His will is served.
btw, I'm still waiting on the enlightened to show up. They say we've been through that era, however, I have yet to see evidence of it. What I see is the evidence of the principle law of the universe, cause and effect. What we sow, we will also reap; our rewards matching that of our service.
Okay, thanks Ellis for your thoughts. Couple of things:
I don't doubt some people "feel" Jesus. This is the common refrain: "I know Jesus is real because I feel him living in my heart." That's well and good for the individual. Unfortunately it provides absolutely no evidentiary assurance Jesus is real for the millions of people who have tried to "feel" Jesus in their hearts and fail to feel anything. This is proof positive Jesus is an imaginary entity--one that can give comfort to certain people because certain people are programmed by their psychological makeup to experience phenomena that triggers the release of "feel-good" chemicals in the brain-- Serotonin, Dopamine and Endorphins--that they then interpret as being overcome by the Holy Spirit. But there is no Holy Spirit or Jesus. There's only the brain chemicals making them have a euphoric experience which they interpret to be Jesus. One question that logically comes to mind from all of this: why do only certain people experience Jesus while others who want to experience him don't? Another question: why do other people get the same feeling but of Buddha living in their hearts while others get the feeling of Krishna living in their hearts but they cannot get the feeling of Jesus? It's all because of the cultural environment they grew up in and the religious training they were given as children. Some children turn atheist in their teens because it's just in their psychological makeup to wake up to reality much earlier than others. Others like myself are lulled along by Christianity's lies and deceptions that Jesus is real until they are mature enough to realize it's all just the Church playing on your gullibility and psychological propensity to believe in spiritual things and nothing else.
Atheists are just people who don't have the capacity to believe in things that cannot be proven without evidence. Christians are people who are capable of having the wool pulled over their eyes by spiritual fluff and promises of eternal happiness in heaven and words in a book that are convincing to them because they grew up being told every day that Jesus is real, so Jesus becomes real to them. Atheists are incapable of believing in pie in the sky and Christians are capable of believing all that. That's the reason atheists and Christians can be differentiated. It's the same for the thousands of religions that exist and the people who believe them as well. There's nothing substantive there; it's all in the mind.
No one has tried so hard to be blind to Jesus, it is that we have looked at the evidence you need to ignore. It is you who is obviously blind to all the other gods that must exist, because other believers sense their gods.
True, however, there is a Lord (and law) above them. Whether they know it or not, believe it or not, is inconsequential to its Being ...
People know because they feel it and once they know it, they can't unknow it. It lays within their spiritual sense, also known as their 6th sense. The Bible is an oral history and tells of how people made sense of their world, both personal and political. imo, no one has ever found Christ in the Bible. What they have found are people within whom they can relate to in their experience today ... It's a history the never changes, no matter the century and it never grows old, but always remains the same. From those words, there is Christ. Through Christ, the world makes sense.
I have a theory about atheist. It is my belief they don't want to know and they won't give their spiritual sense the light of day ... However, everything and everyone serves a purpose under God. So in the grand scheme of all that was, is, or will be, it really doesn't matter what we do within our lives, personal or political. His will is served.
btw, I'm still waiting on the enlightened to show up. They say we've been through that era, however, I have yet to see evidence of it. What I see is the evidence of the principle law of the universe, cause and effect. What we sow, we will also reap; our rewards matching that of our service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Okay, thanks Ellis for your thoughts. Couple of things:
I don't doubt some people "feel" Jesus. This is the common refrain: "I know Jesus is real because I feel him living in my heart." That's well and good for the individual. Unfortunately it provides absolutely no evidentiary assurance Jesus is real for the millions of people who have tried to "feel" Jesus in their hearts and fail to feel anything. This is proof positive Jesus is an imaginary entity--one that can give comfort to certain people because certain people are programmed by their psychological makeup to experience phenomena that triggers the release of "feel-good" chemicals in the brain-- Serotonin, Dopamine and Endorphins--that they then interpret as being overcome by the Holy Spirit. But there is no Holy Spirit or Jesus. There's only the brain chemicals making them have a euphoric experience which they interpret to be Jesus. One question that logically comes to mind from all of this: why do only certain people experience Jesus while others who want to experience him don't? Another question: why do other people get the same feeling but of Buddha living in their hearts while others get the feeling of Krishna living in their hearts but they cannot get the feeling of Jesus? It's all because of the cultural environment they grew up in and the religious training they were given as children. Some children turn atheist in their teens because it's just in their psychological makeup to wake up to reality much earlier than others. Others like myself are lulled along by Christianity's lies and deceptions that Jesus is real until they are mature enough to realize it's all just the Church playing on your gullibility and psychological propensity to believe in spiritual things and nothing else.
Atheists are just people who don't have the capacity to believe in things that cannot be proven without evidence. Christians are people who are capable of having the wool pulled over their eyes by spiritual fluff and promises of eternal happiness in heaven and words in a book that are convincing to them because they grew up being told every day that Jesus is real, so Jesus becomes real to them. Atheists are incapable of believing in pie in the sky and Christians are capable of believing all that. That's the reason atheists and Christians can be differentiated. It's the same for the thousands of religions that exist and the people who believe them as well. There's nothing substantive there; it's all in the mind.
'feel' Jesus, like feeling of love? It's not the same ... it's a knowing, not a feeling. and Atheist have a tendency to explain it all away with a certainty they've done themselves and others a great service for doing so.
'feel' Jesus, like feeling of love? It's not the same ... it's a knowing, not a feeling. and Atheist have a tendency to explain it all away with a certainty they've done themselves and others a great service for doing so.
Whether we feel we're doing a service to others is a completely different discussion. And what love is to you is not love to me or Harry. That's not evidence. I can love someone that you have no feelings for. Harry is capable of not loving at all. So am I. Love doesn't prove a thing. I ask again: what independent evidence do you have to show us that Jesus is real? Can you point to a person whose arms or legs grew back as a result of praying to God in Jesus' name that can be independently verified by impartial scientists? Do you have video evidence of Jesus appearing to a crowd of people? Do you have even one secular historian who mentions Jesus in the 1st Century?
Well, I didn't see your response before this one. If you have no evidence then you're in the position that all Christians are in: you cannot prove to disinterested parties that Jesus is real, therefore there's no good reason for disinterested parties to believe in Jesus. That's the state of affairs and frankly has been since Christianity was invented.
So like Thoreau and Baptist Fundie and Michael Way, when I ask them for secular evidence Jesus was real they draw a blank. Which is why Thoreau and BF never respond to the question. Michael is more skillful at bluffing his way through, but in the end, sadly even he has to draw a blank at the question.
So my thesis--that Jesus never existed is pretty much proven with the ancient literature--or lack of it--that we possess today.
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