Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (sinners, hospital)
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Yourself and all of the authors you mentioned will at some point will go the way as the rest of the human race according to Genesis 3 (physical death) - and then all of you will be able to tell Jesus Himself that He is a myth.
Should make for interesting conversation.
And Jesus can tell you that you should have listened to Saint Paul AND Thrill.
Honestly? Why SHOULD we put any amount of real work into our posts? You're an angry atheist that has proven time and again that you refuse to have any amount of objectivity when it comes to anything that goes against your preconceived notions.
I'm not going to spend any amount of time trying to cast pearls before swine, simply put. Here we are 110 pages in and you are STILL trying to do a victory lap even though you have completely failed to deliver what was promised in any way, shape, or form.
You made a statement in a post upthread : “ if I am presenting valuable info for people trying to make a decision about joining Christianity. ”
Your sense is one “joins” Christianity like it’s a club. And I agree that “organized “ religion that uses Christianity can serve as a club type experience sometimes. But what you miss is there is also those whose proof of Jesus or of God is through direct experience, not through organized religion or the “joining” of anything.
I know that drives you crazy as there is no proof of that. But there is no proof of the phenomenon of “love” either, yet most of us know without scientific proof that we’ve directly experienced love and it’s effect on our lives. Are you willing to say there is no such thing as love because there’s no proof when you know the profound effect it’s direct experience has?
Well, That’s the closest I can come up with to show you there is also the direct experiencing of God.
Whatever the Jesus phenomena and experience is — it is real for millions of humans and can act as a conduit or portal to the experience of God outside of organized religion.
You constantly relate to God as a gender and call God a “he” which comes from the Bible. But to actually experience God is outside the mind and outside human qualities.
Instead of obsessing with the proof of Jesus, why can’t you just let people evolve/mature spiritually in their own way, and just because you’ve never had a direct experience of God allow that perhaps others have…...
Rose, do you actually equate an intangible like love with a supposed tangible can-see, can-feel person like Jesus? This is what I mean about Christians--it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with them on the issues, they are that clueless and uninformed. You think love is something that can be seen or felt like a human being. Mink thinks visions and hallucinations are proof of Jesus. Thoreau and Baptist? Well, forget about them. I couldn't have an intelligent conversation with them if their lives depended on it. Mystic? Too far out in left field with all this mystical mumbo-jumbo. EscMike? Too much into Catholicism. Only Mike Way has ever given me a half-way decent refutation of the issues--when he's not being combative and obnoxious. Now let me take your other issues:
Quote:
Your sense is one “joins” Christianity like it’s a club.
Anyone who goes to or has been a member of a megachurch to mid-sized church know that Christianity IS a club. Your ticket to join is "Jesus is my savior" and like all clubs it has its share of gossipers and backbiters and discriminators and elitists and everything else negative you find in clubs. Cliques in church are a dime a dozen and if you don't fit the group's profile of what an acceptable member is you're shut out. If you're not wealthy you're shut out of the wealthy clique. If you're not white enough you're shut out of the white clique. If you live in the poor area of town you're shut out of the guarded estate clique and so on.
But that's not my gripe with Club Christianity. My grip is that they sell a phony Jesus, one that is easily proven to have never existed. Don't take my word for it. Browse any of the ten books I named in post # 1092. Here's the list again in case anyone missed it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
”Jesus of the gospels is a myth” is no longer fringe, by the way. It is going mainstream in a BIG way with dozens of books available that give an incredible amount of evidence that ”Jesus the son of God” never existed as a living person. Here are just a few that readers here might find interesting as well as edifying if they wanted to pursue this topic further:
1. The Jesus Hoax: How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for Two Thousand Years by John G Jackson
2. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? by John W. Loftus
3. Jesus Never Existed: An Introduction to the Ultimate Heresy by Kenneth Humphreys
4. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient Biblical studies)
5. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All by David Fitzgerald
6. The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M Price (PhD in scriptural studies)
7. Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty
8. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R MacDonald
9. Deciphering the Gospels Proves Jesus Never Existed by RG Price
10. Jesus: Mything in Action Volumes I, II and III by David Fitzgerald
Contained in just those 12 volumes are more evidence for Jesus being a myth than anyone could ever absorb, it is that extensive. And yet Christians, at least those around here don't want to hear it, don't want to discuss it, don't want to know a thing about it--they actually run away from the topic, their faith is that fragile.
Rose, I'll say again for the 100th time: if after you've heard the evidence you still want to get high on Jesus, then go right ahead. I'll buy you the seat in Joel Osteen's megachurch, Lakewood. Just listen to the arguments and then make a decision. That's all I ask for around here. But when I try to engage people like Thoreau and BF in a conversation they can't do any better than, "Ohhhh, no. You don't sucker me into any intelligent conversation about Jesus mythicism!" I mean it's like they are so terrified of finding out a few facts instead of all the propaganda they've been fed all their lives that they cover their eyes, ears and mouth like the proverbial three chimps, "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." What are you going to do with people like that?
No, there isn't evidence to *prove* that Jesus of the Gospels is a myth.
Read any book on the list I provided in #1092 and then get back to me. Are you brave enough to do that, Mink?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
There IS evidence outside the bible. You just don't want to see it as such. Whether or not it convinces you is a different matter.
Plenty of people have had personal religious experiences. It doesn't automatically invalidate them because they were personal, nor does it invalidate them because they were "religious."
Are we really back to visions and hallucinations of Jesus as proof Jesus is real, Mink?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
LOL! You're referring to phet as a "disgruntled poster" while *YOU'RE* the one constantly making anti-Christian threads?
Well, what can I say, Mink? I know, I know--"How about you don't say anything at all, Thrill!"
It's ironic that you claim that phet's responses "never amount to more than 1, 2 or 3 sentence 'blurbs'", yet quote his post above, that's 6 sentences...
...which, so obviously disproves your point. As a Christian, you'd think I'd support your "never" against an atheist. But it ain't the truth.
I've only been on this board for less than a handful of years, but I've seen phet write some pretty insightful posts. And yes, they've amounted to MORE than 1,2 or 3 sentences. And as long as SOME of his posts are more than a few sentences, you can't say "never." To continue to use those generalities only causes you to lose any credibility you might have had.
While I don't suspect that phet is a 'closet theist', I DO suspect that you're more of a believer (albeit, one who is angry at the God you claim not to believe in) than you claim to be.
I agree with phet and some others, thrill. After hundreds of pages of this thread, you still haven't *proven* anything.
I appreciate the comments...especially considering that I often chide you.
But I'll tell you what else I think Thrill is missing, and it's sort of a case of not seeing the forest for the trees...or perhaps in this case not seeing the trees for the forest: there are lots of things that he says -- but not all -- that I do agree with. But this idea he has that he has 'proved' almost anything is part of the obsession. Way back I asked those who think he had proved his point to speak up. It was pretty quiet. And the reason is...it's clearly over-reach on his part. If his thread(s) was/were entitled "Why I believe Jesus Christ Of The Gospels Never Existed And That He's A Myth", I actually think he would have more support by other atheists.
Instead of obsessing with the proof of Jesus, why can’t you just let people evolve/mature spiritually in their own way, and just because you’ve never had a direct experience of God allow that perhaps others have…...
And yet here you are telling him what he should do. ???
Too many of his *facts* are valid to simply imply they are not true. Yes, there are also a few that are dubious or wrong, but that is an advantage of a forum like this, you are free to provide evidence refuting another person's position.
There is plenty of evidence that indicates much (if not all) of the gospel Jesus story is myth.
No there is not. The best you have is Tacitus, but then you need to explain the centuries of silence about this alleged mention. And as we do not know his source IF it is a genuine report, that makes it useless as evidence, because that means it could be based on the allegorical accounts in the gospels themselves.
No, but experience on it's own can not be used when we can not verify them. Two examples, one of our citizens experiences speaking with God directly, and another experiences 2 meter tall cockroach-men. should we trust the experiences of these two men?
Thank you, Harry. The sad thing is that Mink doesn't hear a word you or I are saying to her. All she hears is herself and the people who agree with her.
She cannot hear, "No secular historian in the first century mentions "Jesus Christ". That's a plain as the nose on your face solid historical fact yet she absolutely refuses to hear it.
Seneca the elder (54BC-39AD)
Existed through the reigns of three significant emperors; Augustus (ruled: 27BC-14AD), Tiberius (ruled: 14-37AD), the one in charge when “Jesus” was purported to have been crucified, and Caligula (ruled: 37-41AD); author of an historical work, containing the history of Rome, from the beginning of the civil wars almost down to his own death, which was published by his son Seneca the Younger, who was tutor to emperor Nero (ruled: 54-68AD), whose portrait, of note, is carved on the walls of Dendera Temple worshiping the dying and rising god Osiris (not Jesus); neither him nor his son make mention of an dying and rising Jesus?
4.Tiberius (42BC-37AD)
Roman emperor who completed Dendera Temple, the place where the "Osiris resurrection" is depicted, in full detail, which is from where the story of the "Jesus resurrection" derives; there is no extant work of his mentioning any "Jesus" dying and rising under his reign?
5.Philo of Alexandria (20BC-50AD)
In 39AD, he led an embassy from the Jews to the court of Emperor Gaius Caligula; spent time in Jerusalem (On Providence) where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea; he wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. He offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times. Yet, he says NOT a word about Jesus, Christianity, nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
6.Seneca the Younger (4BC-65AD) In c.55AD, penned a 600-page treatise on Morals, but mentions NOTHING of Jesus, the presumed-to-be most moral and righteous person of all, nor of Christians or Christianity?
These are historical facts. No reasonable person can refute these historical facts. Only Christians deny these facts.
Can a better case be made that Christians simply shut all their senses to anything that provides evidence Jesus wasn't real and that no contemporary historian of Jesus knew a single thing about him?
This is why I can say with full confidence: Atheists and Skeptics Have the Truth. Christians Do NOT.
I appreciate the comments...especially considering that I often chide you.
But I'll tell you what else I think Thrill is missing, and it's sort of a case of not seeing the forest for the trees...or perhaps in this case not seeing the trees for the forest: there are lots of things that he says -- but not all -- that I do agree with. But this idea he has that he has 'proved' almost anything is part of the obsession. Way back I asked those who think he had proved his point to speak up. It was pretty quiet. And the reason is...it's clearly over-reach on his part. If his thread(s) was/were entitled "Why I believe Jesus Christ Of The Gospels Never Existed And That He's A Myth", I actually think he would have more support by other atheists.
I'll comment on this. As mensaguy pointed out, I did say further on that I probably should have used the word, "evidence" as in "...and I can present the evidence" instead of "...and I can prove it". I didn't think the word "prove" would be so contentious as even the book on synonyms sees both words as being synonymous:
proof noun
1.evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
Similar
evidence
verification
corroboration
authentication
confirmation
certification
validation
attestation
demonstration
substantiation
witness
testament
documentation
But one author isn't afraid to use the word proof:
I'll comment on this. As mensaguy pointed out, I did say further on that I probably should have used the word, "evidence" as in "...and I can present the evidence" instead of "...and I can prove it". I didn't think the word "prove" would be so contentious as even the book on synonyms sees both words as being synonymous:
proof noun
1.evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
Similar
evidence
verification
corroboration
authentication
confirmation
certification
validation
attestation
demonstration
substantiation
witness
testament
documentation
But one author isn't afraid to use the word proof:
(book cover)
To most people in the forum, it probably doesn't matter what you said later on since their eyes have glazed over. Perhaps you should ask the moderators to change the title of the thread and make it more realistic.
And Jesus can tell you that you should have listened to Saint Paul AND Thrill.
I guess if Jesus tells me anything - it nukes the point here.
I have no problem w/ Paul in the Scriptures.
People believe what they want to believe. Truth doesn't even matter anymore.
So unless God breaks into your life to show you Himself, I'm not expecting much about Jesus from you and Thrill.
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Tiberius (42BC-37AD)
Philo of Alexandria (20BC-50AD) 
(book cover)
