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Old 11-06-2022, 09:37 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,492 posts, read 3,734,727 times
Reputation: 5752

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
The other outcome is to learn about another person's preferences and not mistake them for things that can be labeled right or wrong.
Point being, there isn’t a right or wrong relative to the thread (based on our individual rights), no matter how one labels (or how many different ways one person argues) such. There isn’t anything to learn but tolerance i.e. live and let live.

As an atheist (and a lawyer), I know there’s ultimately a bigger issue/argument to be won; and logically, proselytizing one’s atheism is not the way to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I started posting one of the 613 commandments on a daily basis to learn what they were in a slow, methodical manner that I felt would help me learn and understand them. Not that it matters to you either way, but that's why I've done so regardless.
Exactly, this is my point; it doesn’t matter to me, but I defend your right to believe in what you want.
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Old 11-06-2022, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Kansas
25,670 posts, read 21,825,826 times
Reputation: 26269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Why is this a problem only for religion? People have argued in science, philosophy, usw, it is how we progressed as a society. And if people are posting false or dishonest information, that also needs to be responded to, so that people who are reading this forum can make a honest decision.
I wouldn't call it arguing though, it is debating that happens. Some people enjoy debating any subject, and some just take the opposing side to "test" the other side. Also, I think some feel the need to "justify" their beliefs, or even facts (since they seem to vary according to one's interpretation) by debating against the opposing side.

I also think many people enjoy reading a "debate" on a subject of interest to them. It can be interesting to see how others justify their beliefs.

Debating is not arguing.
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Old 11-06-2022, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,259 posts, read 23,873,057 times
Reputation: 32614
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Reading carefully chosen books and studies about religion and spirituality is far better than making erroneous conclusions about other people just because one know a person from the religion or ethnicity.
Books tell a lot about a lot of things, mostly about how to think.
And pick a topic and find widely varying books on the topic.
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Old 11-06-2022, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,596 posts, read 4,880,510 times
Reputation: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
I wouldn't call it arguing though, it is debating that happens. Some people enjoy debating any subject, and some just take the opposing side to "test" the other side. Also, I think some feel the need to "justify" their beliefs, or even facts (since they seem to vary according to one's interpretation) by debating against the opposing side.

I also think many people enjoy reading a "debate" on a subject of interest to them. It can be interesting to see how others justify their beliefs.

Debating is not arguing.
But in debating, do you not have arguments that you are making? Are you not arguing your position based on evidence?

And by debating, I am referring to science and philosophy, where you are trying to find probable truths, not the debating where you are just trying to win the argument using debating tricks.
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Old 11-06-2022, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,772 posts, read 13,299,066 times
Reputation: 9781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
But in debating, do you not have arguments that you are making? Are you not arguing your position based on evidence?

And by debating, I am referring to science and philosophy, where you are trying to find probable truths, not the debating where you are just trying to win the argument using debating tricks.
Some of the problem is semantic, I think. "Arguing" has a negative connotation, as if one is just being contrary or divisive; it evokes images of parents fighting dirty while their appalled children look on. "Making an argument" on the other hand is more neutral and is just as he said -- a debate tactic. My stepkids were heavily involved in debate in high school and college and learned to forcefully argue even for positions they didn't personally subscribe to. If they had studied law, they would have taken the same skills to greater levels, so that they could give good representation to any client, because regardless of their character or guilt(lessness), clients deserve good representation in court.

And coming to the subject of lawyers, I suppose we have an answer as to why some disparage "argument". People tend to have negative views of lawyers because they can be crazy-making with their arguments ... they can make you doubt your own sanity, and your snap judgment of a situation, turning it from something you were very sure of, into something that suddenly is questionable and fuzzy.

I think that most people prefer the settled comfort of their beliefs and don't want to examine them too closely, if at all. I'm never clear on why those people even come to a place like this, which is designed for the very purpose of debate. They seem to think this should be an echo chamber, and then as soon is heard what is to them a discouraging word, they want people to stop the arguing already. Their only real option is to ignore topics that don't interest them, or go to a site that restricts views to approved ones.
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Old 11-06-2022, 02:27 PM
 
412 posts, read 134,798 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Point being, there isn’t a right or wrong relative to the thread (based on our individual rights), no matter how one labels (or how many different ways one person argues) such. There isn’t anything to learn but tolerance i.e. live and let live.

As an atheist (and a lawyer), I know there’s ultimately a bigger issue/argument to be won; and logically, proselytizing one’s atheism is not the way to do so.



Exactly, this is my point; it doesn’t matter to me, but I defend your right to believe in what you want.
I am at a loss to understand why some adults do not understand other adults only want their proselytizing when asked. And it's the same people who have been saving the world from the rest of us for over a decade with little to no success. If they've found the fountain of youth and/or a way to reduce greenhouse gases, I am all ears; otherwise...
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Old 11-06-2022, 10:31 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,492 posts, read 3,734,727 times
Reputation: 5752
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
And coming to the subject of lawyers, I suppose we have an answer as to why some disparage "argument". People tend to have negative views of lawyers because they can be crazy-making with their arguments ... they can make you doubt your own sanity, and your snap judgment of a situation, turning it from something you were very sure of, into something that suddenly is questionable and fuzzy.
Your personal comment/opinion relative to lawyers (clearly) speaks to the difference between one who debates intelligently/communicates effectively vs. one who is emotionally-driven and seeks to control the narrative, usually by way of personal jabs/grade-school insults to deflect from the actual topic. Hence the difference between debate/discussion (or the construction of a compelling argument) vs. (baiting an) argument, the latter being what is most common in this forum.

In other words, the thread isn’t about lawyers; but hey, I’m always amused by a good (lawyer) joke. :-)
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Old 11-07-2022, 01:29 AM
 
15,833 posts, read 6,890,069 times
Reputation: 8486
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Some of the problem is semantic, I think. "Arguing" has a negative connotation, as if one is just being contrary or divisive; it evokes images of parents fighting dirty while their appalled children look on. "Making an argument" on the other hand is more neutral and is just as he said -- a debate tactic. My stepkids were heavily involved in debate in high school and college and learned to forcefully argue even for positions they didn't personally subscribe to. If they had studied law, they would have taken the same skills to greater levels, so that they could give good representation to any client, because regardless of their character or guilt(lessness), clients deserve good representation in court.

And coming to the subject of lawyers, I suppose we have an answer as to why some disparage "argument". People tend to have negative views of lawyers because they can be crazy-making with their arguments ... they can make you doubt your own sanity, and your snap judgment of a situation, turning it from something you were very sure of, into something that suddenly is questionable and fuzzy.

I think that most people prefer the settled comfort of their beliefs and don't want to examine them too closely, if at all. I'm never clear on why those people even come to a place like this, which is designed for the very purpose of debate. They seem to think this should be an echo chamber, and then as soon is heard what is to them a discouraging word, they want people to stop the arguing already. Their only real option is to ignore topics that don't interest them, or go to a site that restricts views to approved ones.
There is a forum called Great Debates. It also has strict rules.
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Old 11-07-2022, 08:13 AM
 
1,440 posts, read 465,857 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie767 View Post
I want to thank many of the posters for their thoughtful responses. I originally viewed these verbal tussles as fighting to be right, but I now see that some posters are struggling (in their own way) to "save" others.

I am not the judge of the veracity of these claims, but I acknowledge that it may be the motivating factor for some people.
When Jacob wrestled with the Angel, it was to save himself from the Death threat of Esau. He wanted the blessing of Isaac before facing that and being reconciled. Receiving the blessing prematurely, rather than receiving the blessing past the face to face meeting and contention with threat of Death, as God had prepared the way for that.

Had he received the blessing in its proper time, it would have been given together with his family, as the heritage blessing from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob/Israel is a name from God. And that was paused, and then brought back in the law of God given through Moses, after giving the Priestly blessing and in the same manner as Abram was blessed by the High Priest King of Salem Melchizedek, who after receiving that blessing was given the name Abraham by God.

It was Joseph who was Jacob's favored son who walked out sharing his blessing past the threat of Death, together with his family and even saving others beyond that.

And all of that was also part of Jacob/Israel's growing process in seeing past himself. Which he did.

Last edited by chief scum; 11-07-2022 at 08:29 AM..
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Old 11-07-2022, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,772 posts, read 13,299,066 times
Reputation: 9781
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Your personal comment/opinion relative to lawyers (clearly) speaks to the difference between one who debates intelligently/communicates effectively vs. one who is emotionally-driven and seeks to control the narrative, usually by way of personal jabs/grade-school insults to deflect from the actual topic. Hence the difference between debate/discussion (or the construction of a compelling argument) vs. (baiting an) argument, the latter being what is most common in this forum.

In other words, the thread isn’t about lawyers; but hey, I’m always amused by a good (lawyer) joke. :-)
That is irrelevant and ad hominem. I clearly stated it was not my PERSONAL blanket opinion of lawyers and then you went on to validate my ACTUAL point by admitting that some (you) like good lawyer jokes, and not for no reason. The reason for purposes of this discussion being, that many don't like adversarial points of view to be presented or their thinking in any way challenged. When people over-identify with their ideas, then challenging those ideas in any way, shape or form amounts to personal annihilation in the extreme, or more commonly, to a personal attack, when nothing remotely personal was even intended.
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