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Old 10-28-2022, 09:19 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
It sounds like QuakerBaker has clinical anxiety, which is not the normal human state and requires additional levels of intervention (and QB: I say that to be supportive, not critical; I’ve gone through the same thing).
For a time my wife suffered from extreme anxiety that was by no means a "normal human state," but thankfully that time passed. My nephew suffers from extreme anxiety that makes it difficult for him to leave the comfort of his room in his parent's house. He's about 20 years old. A significant ongoing concern for his parents...

In any case, I surely hate to think that managing anxiety is the purpose of life. Though I suppose I can see how someone might have that perspective if managing anxiety is a major part of their life. My heart goes out to those people.
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Old 10-28-2022, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,587 posts, read 4,872,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Hmmm...

Why would I not be aware there is no evidence a god exists without religion? Say for example there was no religion and someone came up to me and suggested there was a god. Why would I not be an atheist in that case just like now?
Except you would not be aware of the concept of gods or atheism. That is the difference. You would not even think about a concept you are not aware of.

So you have two options.

1) you thought of the concept of gods, and decided there is no evidence for them, or
2) someone else thought about gods, and your atheism is a response to their claims.

I know of no atheist in group 1.
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Old 10-28-2022, 09:56 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Except you would not be aware of the concept of gods or atheism. That is the difference. You would not even think about a concept you are not aware of.

So you have two options.

1) you thought of the concept of gods, and decided there is no evidence for them, or
2) someone else thought about gods, and your atheism is a response to their claims.

I know of no atheist in group 1.
Not sure I follow or that you're following me and perhaps best to leave it at that given whatever importance one can put on these distinctions, but again even if I were not aware of the concept of gods or atheism and someone were to come up to me and for the first time suggest there was a god, why then would I not be an atheist? One who is not aware of any evidence a god exists?

Of course these labels have developed over time for a variety of reasons that give words their meanings today, but my only point is that I am not an atheist because of religion any more than I believe the earth is round because of flat-earthers. Regardless what you want to call me or my conclusions along these lines. They are not a result of everyone or anyone who doesn't share the same knowledge, view or awareness that I do.

That's all...
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,587 posts, read 4,872,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Not sure I follow or that you're following me and perhaps best to leave it at that given whatever importance one can put on these distinctions, but again even if I were not aware of the concept of gods or atheism and someone were to come up to me and for the first time suggest there was a god, why then would I not be an atheist? One who is not aware of any evidence a god exists?

Of course these labels have developed over time for a variety of reasons that give words their meanings today, but my only point is that I am not an atheist because of religion any more than I believe the earth is round because of flat-earthers. Regardless what you want to call me or my conclusions along these lines. They are not a result of everyone or anyone who doesn't share the same knowledge, view or awareness that I do.

That's all...
Yes, you seem to have forgot my original point, that atheism is a response to religious claims. Is your atheism a response to others, or did you independently think of the concept of gods, and thought the concept made no sense?
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Old 10-28-2022, 10:38 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Yes, you seem to have forgot my original point, that atheism is a response to religious claims. Is your atheism a response to others, or did you independently think of the concept of gods, and thought the concept made no sense?
I remember, and it's about that I've tried to further explain why or how my being an atheist is not a response to anything. It's a conclusion based on my knowledge and observations regardless those of others.
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Old 10-28-2022, 12:55 PM
 
15,811 posts, read 6,873,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
It sounds like QuakerBaker has clinical anxiety, which is not the normal human state and requires additional levels of intervention (and QB: I say that to be supportive, not critical; I’ve gone through the same thing).
What I understood is QB is very religious, very physically healthy, is fit and trim, has some anxiety issues which she is managing mostly. Yay! Good for her.

Most people do have anxiety now and then, it is normal, and with good physical health AND some spirituality and religion, most manage well. Which is what the OP began with and we have a come a full circle.
It seems you are fond of arguing with yourself. Knock yourself out.
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Old 10-28-2022, 01:23 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,314 posts, read 12,907,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
What I understood is QB is very religious, very physically healthy, is fit and trim, has some anxiety issues which she is managing mostly. Yay! Good for her.

Most people do have anxiety now and then, it is normal, and with good physical health AND some spirituality and religion, most manage well. Which is what the OP began with and we have a come a full circle.
It seems you are fond of arguing with yourself. Knock yourself out.
Once again, I’m not arguing with anybody, although your understanding of mental health issues and appropriate treatments is clearly lacking, and your insistence on downplaying other people’s struggles (including those supposedly on your “side”) because you think it proves a point is also curious. But reading comprehension isn’t a skill that everyone can master.

Last edited by ElijahAstin; 10-28-2022 at 01:32 PM..
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Old 10-28-2022, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,489 posts, read 6,100,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I remember, and it's about that I've tried to further explain why or how my being an atheist is not a response to anything. It's a conclusion based on my knowledge and observations regardless those of others.
I understand what Harry is saying.

If nobody ever came up with the concept of a god, you would have no such conclusion to draw because there'd be no concept in the first place on which to conclude anything. You just wouldn't have thought about it at all.

It's not a great metaphor though because the fact is, the concept of god of gods has been around for millenia and we are all aware of that, and it's almost impossible to envisage a control group situation in which nobody had ever conceived of or heard of any god.
There's only one known example as far as I can tell. A remote Amazonian tribe, and even they had a sort of spirituality based on nature.

Who knows at what point early humans started to believe in deities. I suspect it came with the advent of complex language.
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Old 10-28-2022, 03:35 PM
 
15,811 posts, read 6,873,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I understand what Harry is saying.

If nobody ever came up with the concept of a god, you would have no such conclusion to draw because there'd be no concept in the first place on which to conclude anything. You just wouldn't have thought about it at all.

It's not a great metaphor though because the fact is, the concept of god of gods has been around for millenia and we are all aware of that, and it's almost impossible to envisage a control group situation in which nobody had ever conceived of or heard of any god.
There's only one known example as far as I can tell. A remote Amazonian tribe, and even they had a sort of spirituality based on nature.

Who knows at what point early humans started to believe in deities. I suspect it came with the advent of complex language.

So you think belief is a state of evolution from atheism? Seems right to me
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Old 10-28-2022, 03:44 PM
 
15,811 posts, read 6,873,166 times
Reputation: 8481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
Once again, I’m not arguing with anybody, although your understanding of mental health issues and appropriate treatments is clearly lacking, and your insistence on downplaying other people’s struggles (including those supposedly on your “side”) because you think it proves a point is also curious. But reading comprehension isn’t a skill that everyone can master.

What QB actually said - she is physically healthy, fit, and mentally healthy as she is able to manage her anxieties when they occur. That is a healthy state of being.

You on other hand would like to endow her with a struggle that does not exist so you can win whatever argument you are having with yourself. I hope your reading comprehension skill, that you seem quite anxious about, come you your aid. Good luck
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