Atheists and health (soul, America, Baptists, protestant)

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by cb2008

I believe you make a lot of good points, particularly about religious conversion. Many of those nations and cultures are now fighting back, reclaiming their culture and religion, and resisting foreign influences by banning missionaries and conversions. Unfortunately this also turns into ethnic clashes, trageting of minorities, ending in brutal killings and destruction of lives.

You must realize however it is not entirely religion that is to be blamed. The US for instance has an official Office of International Freedom of Religion under which guise it can hold nations that ban conversions for religious oppression. https://www.state.gov/bureaus-office...gious-freedom/
I have mixed feeling about this, i do not think this is an entirely benign institution free of political strings, with favored nations that are not questioned, and others that are sanctioned..

Yeah ... not much to disagree with here. I should point out - I don't hate missionaries in a carte blanche way. Like everyone else, there's good and there's bad. I probably witnessed a lot of bad so I'm a little jaded.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Oh really? With psychedelic drugs? No, I haven't heard of that. It's something worth checking into. My only concern is whether insurance would cover it and if the government would ever allow it - given its absolutely hardline no exception anti-drug position. Still ...

I wish I could make contact with the spirit world - or somewhere. I've thought thousands of times that surely there has to be somewhere better than here.

My big issue, though, is quite a lot of my issues stem from environmental conditions rather than chemical imbalances. For instance, my PTSD stems from being abused by my aunt ... well, she's not my blood aunt, but the sister of my adoptive (and deceased) mother. She's still tries to abuse me and we get into some severe arguments and physical fights. She's been in Hawaii the past three years so I've been left in peace. But she came back last month so ... here we go.

Drugs haven't helped me much because, yeah, drugs can't change reality. At best, they tend to zombify me. So I feel nothing. Neither happy or sad. It's how I imagine being dead would feel like.

But thanks for the info. Have a wonderful what's left of Sunday - though by the time you see this, it'll be a different day, so ...

See if you can dig up that NOVA program because it very well addresses all the issues and/or questions you ask!

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by mordant

Our society values conformity to generally accepted norms and is suspicious of outliers.

Except being an atheist doesn’t make us an outlier (or suspicious) if we have built a life for ourselves. It’s not as if all atheists live in a bunker and shout/argue the evils of religion i.e. many of us ARE living within the context of ‘accepted norms’.

Originally Posted by mordant

In this environment, people who do make the decision to openly self-identify as atheist (assuming they can bring themselves to that place, and don't style themselves as spiritual-but-not-religious, agnostic or some other euphemism) are also going to tend to be of a certain personality and proclivity.

My atheism is but a small part of who I am; if one is predominantly identifying as such, I’d suggest that’s the problem in and of itself. If asked ‘who are you’ or ‘what makes mordant tick’, would ‘an atheist/atheism’ be your response?

Originally Posted by mordant

We tend to be introverted, heady, and distinctly not "joiners" because those characteristics make our survival easier.

Speak for yourself; we’re all individuals and as different from each other as we are from theists. Many of us are extroverted and ‘joiners’.

Originally Posted by mordant

In a more accommodating world I would expect our demographics and our mental health to be more roughly similar to anyone else.

Mental health is not contingent upon an accommodating world for any of us; rather, it’s relative to our ability to navigate (inevitable) adversity successfully.

Originally Posted by mordant

So to me it's a galloping assumption that atheism leads, or tends to lead, to poor mental and emotional health when in fact it may be the crappy and unloving attitudes of many theists, and/or a particular set of life circumstances that lead a person to question their faith, that is the actual cause.

We are responsible for navigating our own psychological health i.e. it isn’t someone else’s fault. Sans friends/career/support of some sort, however, it’s more likely to go sideways if one is socially isolated or introverted (as you previously mentioned, quoted above). Hence it’s the social isolation and/or unresolved anger that is the problem, not atheism.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

Except being an atheist doesn’t make us an outlier (or suspicious) if we have built a life for ourselves. It’s not as if all atheists live in a bunker and shout/argue the evils of religion i.e. many of us ARE living within the context of ‘accepted norms’.

Except that the religious often ignore the our lives that we've built and pretend we are taking potshots from bunkers.

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

My atheism is but a small part of who I am; if one is predominantly identifying as such, I’d suggest that’s the problem in and of itself. If asked ‘who are you’ or ‘what makes mordant tick’, would ‘an atheist/atheism’ be your response?

No, it's a small part of my being also and it doesn't really even come up here in the NE US. But that isn't the point. For purpose of these discussions we are debating R&S from an atheist perspective.

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

Speak for yourself; we’re all individuals and as different from each other as we are from theists. Many of us are extroverted and ‘joiners’.

I quite obviously was not speaking for anyone else. I said "TEND TO BE", did I not? Or do you need to ignore that bit of nuance to try to make me say things I'm not saying? I never contended there are zero extroverts among atheists.

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

Mental health is not contingent upon an accommodating world for any of us; rather, it’s relative to our ability to navigate (inevitable) adversity successfully.

Sure it is. Here is one of the times the words of Jesus are apropos: There must needs be offense in the world, but woe to them by whom it comes. I don't want any particular accommodations, I want to be left the hell alone.

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

We are responsible for navigating our own psychological health i.e. it isn’t someone else’s fault. Sans friends/career/support of some sort, however, it’s more likely to go sideways if one is socially isolated or introverted (as you previously mentioned, quoted above). Hence it’s the social isolation and/or unresolved anger that is the problem, not atheism.

It is then a good thing I never said it was someone else's fault or that I don't need to navigate my own mental health. I simply pointed out that there are people who do their darndest to make it as hard as possible for others to navigate their own mental health by being arrogant asshats, and they should be ashamed of doing so. And they should stop. I never remotely implied that this relieves me or anyone else of their personal responsibilities. All I'm about is advocating for not passively accepting abusive and discriminatory and ignorant behaviors and attitudes.

More broadly I'm about advocating that we all -- individuals, organizations, movements, ideologies -- accept the role we actually have in things. All those elements have roles, and those roles are subject to scrutiny and, where appropriate, criticism. I frankly don't understand your need to deny all roles played in this dynamic except that of individuals -- as if social and cultural and religious constructs don't even exist or factor in.

I own MY role in how my life has played out but refuse to own religion's role for it. I've even made that explicit in posts over the years -- that while I recognize the role my religious upbringing had in things, and that it concretely harmed me, I also accept that I had a role. Maybe my religion was spouting baseless assertions and trying to define me, but I was also to a point happily accepting and receptive to those assertions and definitions because I thought it would produce certain outcomes. I eventually found out otherwise, and I do not blame religion for my own stupidity. However, I DO hold it responsible for intellectual dishonesty, gaslighting and various other things that represent concrete harms and make life harder for the various out-groups, including mine, and make it as costly as possible for people to freely leave. I think if it relies on bad arguments and victim blaming to exist, to that extent it does not deserve to exist.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by mordant

Except that the religious often ignore the our lives that we've built and pretend we are taking potshots from bunkers.

No, it's a small part of my being also and it doesn't really even come up here in the NE US. But that isn't the point. For purpose of these discussions we are debating R&S from an atheist perspective.

I quite obviously was not speaking for anyone else. I said "TEND TO BE", did I not? Or do you need to ignore that bit of nuance to try to make me say things I'm not saying? I never contended there are zero extroverts among atheists.

Sure it is. Here is one of the times the words of Jesus are apropos: There must needs be offense in the world, but woe to them by whom it comes. I don't want any particular accommodations, I want to be left the hell alone.

It is then a good thing I never said it was someone else's fault or that I don't need to navigate my own mental health. I simply pointed out that there are people who do their darndest to make it as hard as possible for others to navigate their own mental health by being arrogant asshats, and they should be ashamed of doing so. And they should stop. I never remotely implied that this relieves me or anyone else of their personal responsibilities. All I'm about is advocating for not passively accepting abusive and discriminatory and ignorant behaviors and attitudes.

More broadly I'm about advocating that we all -- individuals, organizations, movements, ideologies -- accept the role we actually have in things. All those elements have roles, and those roles are subject to scrutiny and, where appropriate, criticism. I frankly don't understand your need to deny all roles played in this dynamic except that of individuals -- as if social and cultural and religious constructs don't even exist or factor in.

I own MY role in how my life has played out but refuse to own religion's role for it. I've even made that explicit in posts over the years -- that while I recognize the role my religious upbringing had in things, and that it concretely harmed me, I also accept that I had a role. Maybe my religion was spouting baseless assertions and trying to define me, but I was also to a point happily accepting and receptive to those assertions and definitions because I thought it would produce certain outcomes. I eventually found out otherwise, and I do not blame religion for my own stupidity. However, I DO hold it responsible for intellectual dishonesty, gaslighting, and various other things that represent concrete harms and make life harder for the various out-groups, including mine, and make it as costly as possible for people to freely leave. I think if it relies on bad arguments and victim blaming to exist, to that extent it does not deserve to exist.

Colorfully expressed, but spot on, mordant!! The Cowboy's lawyerly mind is trained to focus on the individuals and their responsibilities. Societal, institutional, religious, and other such external factors do play a large role in the lives of most of us.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by mordant

Except that the religious often ignore the our lives that we've built and pretend we are taking potshots from bunkers.

No, it's a small part of my being also and it doesn't really even come up here in the NE US. But that isn't the point. For purpose of these discussions we are debating R&S from an atheist perspective.

I quite obviously was not speaking for anyone else. I said "TEND TO BE", did I not? Or do you need to ignore that bit of nuance to try to make me say things I'm not saying? I never contended there are zero extroverts among atheists.

Sure it is. Here is one of the times the words of Jesus are apropos: There must needs be offense in the world, but woe to them by whom it comes. I don't want any particular accommodations, I want to be left the hell alone.

It is then a good thing I never said it was someone else's fault or that I don't need to navigate my own mental health. I simply pointed out that there are people who do their darndest to make it as hard as possible for others to navigate their own mental health by being arrogant asshats, and they should be ashamed of doing so. And they should stop. I never remotely implied that this relieves me or anyone else of their personal responsibilities. All I'm about is advocating for not passively accepting abusive and discriminatory and ignorant behaviors and attitudes.

More broadly I'm about advocating that we all -- individuals, organizations, movements, ideologies -- accept the role we actually have in things. All those elements have roles, and those roles are subject to scrutiny and, where appropriate, criticism. I frankly don't understand your need to deny all roles played in this dynamic except that of individuals -- as if social and cultural and religious constructs don't even exist or factor in.

I own MY role in how my life has played out but refuse to own religion's role for it. I've even made that explicit in posts over the years -- that while I recognize the role my religious upbringing had in things, and that it concretely harmed me, I also accept that I had a role. Maybe my religion was spouting baseless assertions and trying to define me, but I was also to a point happily accepting and receptive to those assertions and definitions because I thought it would produce certain outcomes. I eventually found out otherwise, and I do not blame religion for my own stupidity. However, I DO hold it responsible for intellectual dishonesty, gaslighting and various other things that represent concrete harms and make life harder for the various out-groups, including mine, and make it as costly as possible for people to freely leave. I think if it relies on bad arguments and victim blaming to exist, to that extent it does not deserve to exist.

For whatever it might be worth, I've been able to follow, understand and mostly agree with what you often take pains to explain, and with a few of the people that so typically have problems along those lines, I too have had similar problems with them. I've tried to avoid further pain trying to untangle their typical "confusion," but of course that inclination only comes with time. Took a very long time for me, and I still slip more often than I should. Best to you and your efforts in any case.

Sincerely,

LM

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by mordant

Except that the religious often ignore the our lives that we've built and pretend we are taking potshots from bunkers.

From my perspective, it’s all the more reason to demonstrate atheists are individuals; and some of us are compassionate, successful, friendly and healthy individuals.

Originally Posted by mordant

For purpose of these discussions we are debating R&S from an atheist perspective.

Originally Posted by mordant

I quite obviously was not speaking for anyone else. I said "TEND TO BE", did I not?

We don’t ‘tend to be’ anything; we’re individuals. You’re debating/speaking from your perspective - not ‘we’/or an atheistic perspective, as a whole; there isn’t such a thing, other than we don’t believe in a god.

Originally Posted by mordant

Sure it is. Here is one of the times the words of Jesus are apropos: There must needs be offense in the world, but woe to them by whom it comes. I don't want any particular accommodations, I want to be left the hell alone.

Religious words are meaningless to me. That said, walk away from the nonsense and conduct your life accordingly; it’s as simple as that. Do what is necessary from a legal standpoint, and dismiss the rest.

Originally Posted by mordant

It is then a good thing I never said it was someone else's fault or that I don't need to navigate my own mental health. I simply pointed out that there are people who do their darndest to make it as hard as possible for others to navigate their own mental health by being arrogant asshats, and they should be ashamed of doing so. And they should stop. I never remotely implied that this relieves me or anyone else of their personal responsibilities. All I'm about is advocating for not passively accepting abusive and discriminatory and ignorant behaviors and attitudes.

Who said anything about accepting abusive behavior (which is quite different than not accepting what other people think about atheism). We control what we do and think (and our own mental health in the process) - both in terms of how we view our atheism as well as how we surround ourselves with people who are not abusive. You control your own buttons; ‘arrogant asshats’ do not.

Point being, we have a very different perspective on what it means to be an atheist i.e. I don’t consider myself a victim. Hence my point it’s one’s perspective/negativity/anger/blame that is the culprit relative to one’s (lack of) mental health; it’s certainly not atheism.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

From my perspective, it’s all the more reason to demonstrate atheists are individuals; and some of us are compassionate, successful, friendly and healthy individuals.

We don’t ‘tend to be’ anything; we’re individuals. You’re debating/speaking from your perspective - not ‘we’/or an atheistic perspective, as a whole; there isn’t such a thing, other than we don’t believe in a god.

Religious words are meaningless to me. That said, walk away from the nonsense and conduct your life accordingly; it’s as simple as that. Do what is necessary from a legal standpoint, and dismiss the rest.

Who said anything about accepting abusive behavior (which is quite different than not accepting what other people think about atheism). We control what we do and think (and our own mental health in the process) - both in terms of how we view our atheism as well as how we surround ourselves with people who are not abusive. You control your own buttons; ‘arrogant asshats’ do not.

Point being, we have a very different perspective on what it means to be an atheist i.e. I don’t consider myself a victim. Hence my point it’s one’s perspective/negativity/anger/blame that is the culprit relative to one’s (lack of) mental health; it’s certainly not atheism.

another very sensible and sound post.
good points all, thank you for calling out the non-existent "we" and the victim mindset and the blaming.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

Point being, we have a very different perspective on what it means to be an atheist i.e. I don’t consider myself a victim.

Nor do I. That doesn't mean either that some people don't try to make me their victim, or to define me on their terms, or that I should not reject those attempts. What would make me a victim is passive acceptance of other people's judgments and demands (you are unworthy, you should shut up and go away, etc).

It can be argued that ignoring other's judgments, never challenging them in any context, is taking the role of victim out of some misguided desire for conflict avoidance. You can claim -- and not without some validity -- that it doesn't effect you -- now, at this moment, personally. But it eventually effects all of us, if unchecked.

If you truly feel that there is no basis for discussion except what is legally defined and required then I guess you are okay with waiting until they pass laws that define your unbelief as socially sanctionable. Since you're not a woman of childbearing age, they won't come for you, yet, in all states. But they'll find other ways. Oh yes they will. You can take that one to the bank. The purpose of power is power.

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by mordant

That doesn't mean either that some people don't try to make me their victim, or to define me on their terms, or that I should not reject those attempts. What would make me a victim is passive acceptance of other people's judgments and demands (you are unworthy, you should shut up and go away, etc).

It depends on who you’re fighting or for what purpose. If every Joe Blow on the internet can rile you (relative to their personal opinion of atheism or religion), that’s (going to be) a problem regarding your psychological health - and perhaps physical health as well.

Key point being, your ‘worthiness’ does not/should not rely on others. There’s a huge difference between fighting for something (relative to the community or law) vs. fighting a personal opinion to defend one’s ego. Do you think (healthy) atheists, as a whole, make everything a personal battle relative to our professional and social lives? Of course we don’t. :-)

Originally Posted by mordant

If you truly feel that there is no basis for discussion except what is legally defined and required then I guess you are okay with waiting until they pass laws that define your unbelief as socially sanctionable.

Law is a different subject than our discussion relative to (mental) health, per the thread; I’ve addressed such many times in other threads.