U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-10-2023, 04:30 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
18,610 posts, read 12,602,014 times
Reputation: 9144

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstnghu2 View Post
This is a ridiculous analogy. You cooking breakfast in your apartment isn't exactly the same as a religious belief system in which people base their entire existence and lifestyle around. I'd say that corroboration and other evidence is actually pretty important when it comes to religious beliefs...not so important in regards to you cooking alone in your apartment.
You are touching on the issue that some truth claims are more or less consequential than others. The more consequential the truth claim, the higher the bar for what constitutes acceptable evidence for that claim.

Mink claiming to eat breakfast alone is of little consequence compared to Mink claiming that people's eternal destiny and/or earthly fortunes hinge on their acceptance of assertions in a holy book as understood by a particular religious group.

I am willing to take Mink's word for how she takes breakfast or whether she lives alone because if she's lying it is of no consequence whatsoever. But if, hypothetically, she were to assert that I am subject to eternal perdition because I believe the theory of evolution to be substantially correct, then she would have to evidence that rather florid claim before I would take it seriously. And she would be up against substantial bodies of evidence that say otherwise -- not simply dueling claims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-10-2023, 08:54 AM
 
28,070 posts, read 8,772,433 times
Reputation: 3199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57 View Post
Sez WHO?!

Why do you think so much that SOMEONE has to 'corroborate' in order for something to be true?

I'm currently sitting in my little apartment cooking breakfast. In a world of almost 8 billion people, NO ONE can 'corroborate' that I'm making breakfast, since I live alone.

My 'testimony' here on this forum is ALL that I have.

And just because you may not believe my testimony doesn't make it not so.
Dear Mink,

I recently (yesterday) posted a video of what Neil Degrasse explains that answers your question. In my Ten Truths thread. Why the answer is important to people like me anyway. All you really need to do is listen to the first 5 minutes to know what I mean. If you are really interested in why corroboration AKA confirmation is important when it comes to establishing the truth about matters of importance for all concerned.

Not sure your breakfast falls into that category, but if we're talking about the sorts of things that truly matter; that people devote their lives to and/or go to wars over, for people like me anyway, corroboration is VERY important. No different or less than the sort of corroboration that establishes whether a drug is actually good, safe and necessary to use or not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2023, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
48,136 posts, read 22,165,948 times
Reputation: 31372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57 View Post
Sez WHO?!

Why do you think so much that SOMEONE has to 'corroborate' in order for something to be true?

I'm currently sitting in my little apartment cooking breakfast. In a world of almost 8 billion people, NO ONE can 'corroborate' that I'm making breakfast, since I live alone.

My 'testimony' here on this forum is ALL that I have.

And just because you may not believe my testimony doesn't make it not so.
Individual testimony -- or as we usually term it, anecdotes -- have little import other than to the person saying/writing it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2023, 09:27 AM
 
17,819 posts, read 16,170,155 times
Reputation: 7284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting. What sect were you in when you de-converted? My sect didn't believe in the Rapture or Date-Setting. I never had the experience of expecting the world to end on a certain date, with nothing happening when the date came.

My whole de-conversion story is a lot longer and uglier.

I was raised in a fundamentalist Lutheran sect (Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod). Unfortunately, that church body has their own elementary "school" system to indoctrinate their youth. My father went "off the deep end" and decided to become a preacher around 1990, after he almost drowned in a rip current in North Carolina. Then came 4 moves in 4 years related to Seminary and all of that. I was in my junior high years at the time, socially awkward, and therefore bullied constantly.

I went to a nominally Lutheran college, where I was exposed to Mainline Protestantism for the first time. I wondered why these "Christians" didn't believe any of the doctrines I was taught. How could this happen, I wondered? Why would God let his own church go so far "off the rails?" I started to wonder if the atheists were actually right. After all, it would explain why Christianity had fragmented into so many different denominations that couldn't agree on anything. But I couldn't let go of the evangelical Christianity I had been raised in, especially with the recent death of my grandfather at the time. So I doubled down and tried to "prove" to myself that it was still true.

After a lot of apologetics and interactions with non-Christians online, I eventually realized that Christianity and God were a delusion. The dam finally broke loose in my mind one day in October of 2012. It was pretty traumatic for me, since I couldn't get the fear of hell out of my brain for a long time. It took a lot of counseling and therapy to deprogram myself from the worst parts of the religion.

At this point in my life I'm a non-religious person. Unfortunately, I still have a hard time functioning in modern society because of my fringe upbringing and sub-par "education" in the church.

My story should be a cautionary tale to any parent thinking about raising their child in fundamentalist Christianity. You should realize that your child will *eventually* have to interact with the outside world.
Sounds like you had the intellectual wherewithal to question things at an early age. We come in all mental and psychological sizes and shapes. I'm in awe of adolescents in their early teens raised in strict pentecostal evangelical families who can begin questioning the deep flaws in their religion and make the decision at such an early age to become atheist because they can see clearly that there is no God or Jesus operating in their lives. I wish I had had that kind of perceptive critical reasoning in my teens. My life would have turned out a lot differently.

Christians are hoodwinked by their pastors and other sundry church people into believing this nonsense about God will always help them and guide them and he has a plan for their lives and other meaningless crap. Many of us learn all too late it's just bogus propaganda that keeps churchmen employed collecting a check from the dopes who believe these televangelist cons when they tell them God will reward them a thousand times their contributions to help the televangelists buy Lear jets to joyride around the world in.Your story is a cautionary tale as you say about Christian shysters who use the threat of hell to force people to stay in their religion.

I tell people that when it comes to Christianity you should always just follow the money. Without the $$$$$$'s Christianity would go back to being a fringe religion reserved only for fanatics.

It's Christianity's power to generate money from gullible fools that keeps Christianity afloat--keeps all the televangelist crooks on the boob-tube rolling in the green spewing their gibberish to naive Christians who fall for it. The whole crooked enterprise according to statistics will disappear by the end of century. Good riddance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2023, 04:39 PM
 
Location: USA
18,124 posts, read 8,659,817 times
Reputation: 8238
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Sounds like you had the intellectual wherewithal to question things at an early age. We come in all mental and psychological sizes and shapes. I'm in awe of adolescents in their early teens raised in strict Pentecostal evangelical families who can begin questioning the deep flaws in their religion and make the decision at such an early age to become atheist because they can see clearly that there is no God or Jesus operating in their lives. I wish I had had that kind of perceptive critical reasoning in my teens. My life would have turned out a lot differently.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't fully de-convert until age 32 with the prime of my life behind me. I probably would have had a lot more fun in my younger years if I hadn't been saddled with evangelical Christian beliefs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Christians are hoodwinked by their pastors and other sundry church people into believing this nonsense about God will always help them and guide them and he has a plan for their lives and other meaningless crap. Many of us learn all too late it's just bogus propaganda that keeps churchmen employed collecting a check from the dopes who believe these televangelist cons when they tell them God will reward them a thousand times their contributions to help the televangelists buy Lear jets to joyride around the world in.Your story is a cautionary tale as you say about Christian shysters who use the threat of hell to force people to stay in their religion.

I tell people that when it comes to Christianity you should always just follow the money. Without the $$$$$$'s Christianity would go back to being a fringe religion reserved only for fanatics.

It's Christianity's power to generate money from gullible fools that keeps Christianity afloat--keeps all the televangelist crooks on the boob-tube rolling in the green spewing their gibberish to naive Christians who fall for it.

I agree. It's mostly about money and having *absolute authority* over someone else. People are willing to do almost anything for money and power. And religion is one of the easiest ways to get it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The whole crooked enterprise according to statistics will disappear by the end of century. Good riddance.

I hope you are right. I am not so optimistic. Religion, like any virus, is good at surviving via mutation and natural selection. Christianity in the year 2100 might look different than it does right now, but I doubt it will completely go away.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2023, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
18,610 posts, read 12,602,014 times
Reputation: 9144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
I am not so optimistic. Religion, like any virus, is good at surviving via mutation and natural selection. Christianity in the year 2100 might look different than it does right now, but I doubt it will completely go away.
Me neither. For religion to go away people's mental processes and tendencies would have to substantially change. For Religion in general to go away, would take at least a millennium, I'd think, and that would be if humans in general worked at it. Even then the major religions would still be fringe beliefs that would appeal to a minority of people.

We should not confuse the rate of technological progress with the rate of sociological and philosophical progress. Just because we may (if we don't destroy ourselves first) be colonizing the solar system by 2100 does not mean we will all become empiricists and rationalists and embrace bare-metal reality all of a sudden. It is not everyone's cup of tea now, and won't be then. A century is not all that much time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2023, 11:31 AM
 
28,070 posts, read 8,772,433 times
Reputation: 3199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Me neither. For religion to go away people's mental processes and tendencies would have to substantially change. For Religion in general to go away, would take at least a millennium, I'd think, and that would be if humans in general worked at it. Even then the major religions would still be fringe beliefs that would appeal to a minority of people.

We should not confuse the rate of technological progress with the rate of sociological and philosophical progress. Just because we may (if we don't destroy ourselves first) be colonizing the solar system by 2100 does not mean we will all become empiricists and rationalists and embrace bare-metal reality all of a sudden. It is not everyone's cup of tea now, and won't be then. A century is not all that much time.
Interesting to guess or speculate about, and although I for the most part agree, I'd say the more important question is how long before organized religion loses it's power and influence over the politics of this country and others, so that at least the wrongs perpetrated by that power and influence are ultimately mitigated.

Something I have often referred to as the "slow maturing of Man." Unfortunately, far too slow for far too many people...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2023, 11:33 AM
 
28,070 posts, read 8,772,433 times
Reputation: 3199
I've been contemplating my decision to leave this forum again for today, and I've finally concluded it's time. For those contemplating their decision to leave Christianity, know that it's entirely okay to do so, and cheers! Whatever the final decision may be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-13-2023, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
48,136 posts, read 22,165,948 times
Reputation: 31372
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Interesting to guess or speculate about, and although I for the most part agree, I'd say the more important question is how long before organized religion loses it's power and influence over the politics of this country and others, so that at least the wrongs perpetrated by that power and influence are ultimately mitigated.

Something I have often referred to as the "slow maturing of Man." Unfortunately, far too slow for far too many people...
When I think of the 'christian atmosphere' (for wont of a better term) in the 1950s when I was growing up, as compared to now, I would say that today we are -- in general -- in a "christian-light" era. It's gotten very easy for people to say they are a christian, but it doesn't seem like a serious part of many people's lives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2023, 03:23 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
7,204 posts, read 5,726,609 times
Reputation: 6583
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
When I think of the 'christian atmosphere' (for wont of a better term) in the 1950s when I was growing up, as compared to now, I would say that today we are -- in general -- in a "christian-light" era. It's gotten very easy for people to say they are a christian, but it doesn't seem like a serious part of many people's lives.
I was thinking about this Sunday Morning. I went to the Episcopal church which I attend for Aesthetic reasons and decided to stop in to the morning after service social hour. I actually wanted just to get a drink of water before driving home, but then eyed some healthy snacks and decided to stay and visit. I ended up staying for a while and meeting some very friendly, easy going low key people , some of whom share some interests with me (not along the lines of religion)

None of the following
Why are you Here?
What do you believe about the Bible?
Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and savior...?

NONE OF THAT
And yes, I have encountered all of that and more in various churches, many times. Not this time. Just "Sit down and chat" low key, easy going, and no comments about having the longest hair in the room. Much different from the experiences I had growing up in a Baptist church, or with the ex-catwife in her families church of Christ...(ie Fear of God, Fear of the Devil, Fear of each other, Gay bashing, gratuitous use of the N-Word.) I once said that Quentin Tarrantino had to have visited the church I went to as a kid to understand how to frequently use the N-Word in a casual conversation.
Nothing happened that would drive me away from ever coming back. Then again, I rarely socialize with people there.

Yes, I have met a few A-Holes in the Episcopal church (three I think in 30 plus years?) but it tends to be a very peaceful setting. I have met a few nice people in the Baptist church too, like maybe 3 over 50 years? Only one in the coc By the way, a former NFL and NCAA Football coach who was most pleasant and down to earth in spite of his celebrity status.

And most people there do not view "god" as an entity or a being or a person or a spirit or a creature, but as a concept, an idea...and I have had many communicate that to me.

There are people on this forum, I do not want to list names for fear of leaving someone out, but if they had something interesting happening at their catholic or Episcopal church and invited me to go along, then I might do so. I find them to be interesting and think a good conversation or experience could be had. On the other hand, I have well learned that a good experienced Cannot be had at a fundamentalist church, like the church of Christ , Sothern Baptist or AoG and would never consider wasting time there again. And if it says "Bible church, " well count me out.


If on the other hand, people like myself are looking for good company, good music, a beautiful experience without hell fire, hatred, KKK talk, racism, homophobia, well it would not really matter what anyone believed. In fact, I would not inquire what a person believes, nor would I discuss with them my atheism, although my Aestheticism would be pretty obvious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2023, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top