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Old 12-10-2022, 09:44 AM
 
18,190 posts, read 16,761,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Yes. All good points and you aren't alone. I wasn't brought up to view people who were not my religion - now Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, (which. despite its name, is not Evangelical in the way most people think of today, and not conservative) - and I never thought that we were "the one true church" or that everyone who was not a member was "hell bound".

While I am still a member of a Lutheran church, I attend infrequently. Maybe once a month. Christmas, which is beautiful, and Easter. These are more traditions, than religious events. I raised two kids in that church, to provide them with a spiritual identity, faith and focus. However, for several years we lived in a place with no ELCA church, and we attended an Episcopal church, which is quite close.

Since they are grown, I've become more "experimental". I have always been spiritual outside of Christianity. In the past decade I have been interested in other forms of spirituality - mainly, Paganism, and Spiritualism. I visit Lilydale NY every summer and I take classes and workshops there. Since I have abilities, I have contemplated becoming a registered medium in the Spiritualist church.

Paganism is a natural to me. I have been reading about it since I was a child. Early on, I noticed the huge similarity between liturgical Christianity and pagan beliefs.

Since I am from a Northern European background, I feel drawn to the practices of my ancestors. Paganism or Witchcraft.

I don't think there is an "answer" for everyone. I think the path of a seeker is quite naturally, without an earthly end. Your reading, and the knowledge gleaned, will not have an end in this lifetime. I see it as an ongoing process with unexpected twists and turns each bringing their own epiphany, if you will.

People who think they have found all of the answers are usually narrowminded and lacking in intellectual curiosity - or they are cult members.

As for myself, I have no reason to reject Christianity, or to cut myself off completely from it's teachings completely, although I know that many in my church would not agree with my spiritual practices. I don't care. I don't answer to them.

If you can break yourself free of this ridiculous notion Christianity keeps propagating that Jesus is the ONLY way to get to heaven and that all others are bound for an eternity of torture in a fiery hell then you are doing really good. Most Christians are completely unaware that this notion of going to hell was stolen by the church from the pagan Greeks who threatened their citizens with eternal torture in the fiery Pyriphlegethon river if they caused civil disturbances. It was a political ploy used by the church to force people to join Christianity. This was all part of the package of Christian deception that caused me to want to leave Christianity.
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Old 12-10-2022, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,632 posts, read 13,448,531 times
Reputation: 17556
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you can break yourself free of this ridiculous notion Christianity keeps propagating that Jesus is the ONLY way to get to heaven.
The whole story is crazy when you think about it in terms of your ticket to heaven.

What happened to people who weren't Israelites before Jesus showed up. The old testament pretty much tells us that the near east tribes who conflicted with the Hebrews were out of luck. But what about the people in other parts of the world that were completely ignorant of Hebrews and their "one true God". What happened to them when they died?

The Bible isn't clear on that despite the fact that the non knowers made up the larger population of the world.

And then in the most bizarre fashion, God throws a curve ball and gives them a Messiah that wasn't quite what they were expecting...and they don't buy in. So God gets mad at them and opens things up for the Gentiles to get to go to Heaven.

That's nuts.
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Old 12-10-2022, 12:03 PM
 
9,229 posts, read 8,496,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayle White View Post
No. It's King James' version of the acceptable scriptures (scribes' writings), and I think many try to twist scriptures to fit their personal beliefs.
Indeed. Including those that use scriptures to start arguments.
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Old 12-11-2022, 04:22 AM
Status: "I'm turquoise happy!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,878 posts, read 32,152,257 times
Reputation: 67753
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you can break yourself free of this ridiculous notion Christianity keeps propagating that Jesus is the ONLY way to get to heaven and that all others are bound for an eternity of torture in a fiery hell then you are doing really good. Most Christians are completely unaware that this notion of going to hell was stolen by the church from the pagan Greeks who threatened their citizens with eternal torture in the fiery Pyriphlegethon river if they caused civil disturbances. It was a political ploy used by the church to force people to join Christianity. This was all part of the package of Christian deception that caused me to want to leave Christianity.
Never thought that in the first place.

What kind of Christianity were you brought up in? I was never, ever, preached to about Hell Fire and Brimstone".

So my affection to Christianity, isn't based in fear, as it is with some most Evangelicals, and many Roman Catholics.

There are many other Christians who embrace other religious traditions. I am not unique.
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Old 12-11-2022, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,743 posts, read 13,278,270 times
Reputation: 9731
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
The whole story is crazy when you think about it in terms of your ticket to heaven.

What happened to people who weren't Israelites before Jesus showed up. The old testament pretty much tells us that the near east tribes who conflicted with the Hebrews were out of luck. But what about the people in other parts of the world that were completely ignorant of Hebrews and their "one true God". What happened to them when they died?

The Bible isn't clear on that despite the fact that the non knowers made up the larger population of the world.

And then in the most bizarre fashion, God throws a curve ball and gives them a Messiah that wasn't quite what they were expecting...and they don't buy in. So God gets mad at them and opens things up for the Gentiles to get to go to Heaven.

That's nuts.
Understanding that this is a logical problem, a lot of Christians will teach that the righteous B.C. folks were "anticipating" or "looking forward to" the coming of Jesus, even if they didn't fully understand it; that many O.T. Jewish laws / customs / temple structures were "types" or foreshadowings of the salvation to come. That even in that era, the "just shall live by faith" rather than works / obedience to rules, even though the rules did exist and had to be followed.

But it is just lip service. The reality is just as you said, those heathens were just out of luck. Heck, even Israel was subject to conquerors and plagues and whatnot if they didn't toe the line.

As to why they weren't expecting Jesus, you are also correct. The Messiah was to be a conquering hero who would restore the (alleged) former Solomonic greatness of Israel's kingdom and establish their rightful earthly kingdom. This business of a spiritual kingdom was all post hoc rationalizations and in fact a lot of other "spiritualized" "explanations" were popular in the early days of the church, including that Jesus was either a celestial apparition with only apparent physicality, or was a man inhabited or possessed by god (and abandoned just before his suffering on the cross). Assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus was a discrete historical individual on which the Christ mythos was built, I think the early popularity of those ideas reflected the need to rationalize the ignominious death of this conquering hero and salvage the movement thereby. Of course with a couple hundred year's distance and the decreasing importance of the Jewish believers in the dynamic, that narrative was eventually eclipsed by the proto-orthodox's more relatable and a bit more grounded god-man narrative. "A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief".
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Old 12-11-2022, 10:15 AM
 
18,190 posts, read 16,761,399 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Never thought that in the first place.

What kind of Christianity were you brought up in? I was never, ever, preached to about Hell Fire and Brimstone".

So my affection to Christianity, isn't based in fear, as it is with some most Evangelicals, and many Roman Catholics.

There are many other Christians who embrace other religious traditions. I am not unique.

Quote:
I was never, ever, preached to about Hell Fire and Brimstone".

You are extremely lucky, Sheena. fiery torment in hell is the chief doctrine Catholics and Christians are taught that the will face if they refuse Jesus. When you're old and wise you come to see how evil the doctrine really is, but when you're a kid and this is pounded into your head day after day in parochial school by lunatic nuns and pastors believe me it takes decades of re-programing to finally overcome this terror and see it for what it is--a fear tactic designed to bludgeon a person into accepting Jesus. It is corrupt to its core and so is any religion that teaches it. The irrational fear of hell that causes Christians to lose their minds is called Hadephobia:


https://optimistminds.com/hadephobia/
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Old 12-11-2022, 11:45 PM
 
63,423 posts, read 39,673,771 times
Reputation: 7783
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Understanding that this is a logical problem, a lot of Christians will teach that the righteous B.C. folks were "anticipating" or "looking forward to" the coming of Jesus, even if they didn't fully understand it; that many O.T. Jewish laws / customs / temple structures were "types" or foreshadowings of the salvation to come. That even in that era, the "just shall live by faith" rather than works / obedience to rules, even though the rules did exist and had to be followed.

But it is just lip service. The reality is just as you said, those heathens were just out of luck. Heck, even Israel was subject to conquerors and plagues and whatnot if they didn't toe the line.

As to why they weren't expecting Jesus, you are also correct. The Messiah was to be a conquering hero who would restore the (alleged) former Solomonic greatness of Israel's kingdom and establish their rightful earthly kingdom. This business of a spiritual kingdom was all post hoc rationalizations and in fact a lot of other "spiritualized" "explanations" were popular in the early days of the church, including that Jesus was either a celestial apparition with only apparent physicality, or was a man inhabited or possessed by god (and abandoned just before his suffering on the cross). Assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus was a discrete historical individual on which the Christ mythos was built, I think the early popularity of those ideas reflected the need to rationalize the ignominious death of this conquering hero and salvage the movement thereby. Of course with a couple hundred year's distance and the decreasing importance of the Jewish believers in the dynamic, that narrative was eventually eclipsed by the proto-orthodox's more relatable and a bit more grounded god-man narrative. "A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief".
You do reasonably grasp the complexities and biases of the ancient milieu in the "mists of time" within which the Christian religion was "crafted" by those who eventually adopted it. The misinterpretations of Jesus and the rationalizations adopted to form the dogma are primarily why it has remained so primitive, barbaric, and rigid for over two millennia. They needed to craft a dogma that would resist and deter revision or correction to retain the illusion of its supposed infallible source - God Himself!

I am convinced that is primarily why the Bible was retained only in Latin by the Catholic Church for so long. Dare not let lay people actually read this inconsistent, contradictory, and irrational so-called infallible source!! The Protestant Reformation and the subsequent splintering of denominations and interpretations confirm the wisdom of that prior practice despite what I consider its corrupt and inherently evil intent.

None of which necessarily indicts or invalidates the underlying narrative about Jesus. However, it does indict most of the embellishments and fantastical l elements added to provide what they thought was confirmatory evidence of their "Apostolic" authority and their preferred beliefs about His purpose on earth and His Godliness! This is why it is necessary to read this mishmash with the "mind of Christ" to see the corruptions and misinterpretations for what they were, IMO.
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Old 12-12-2022, 09:43 AM
 
18,190 posts, read 16,761,399 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You do reasonably grasp the complexities and biases of the ancient milieu in the "mists of time" within which the Christian religion was "crafted" by those who eventually adopted it. The misinterpretations of Jesus and the rationalizations adopted to form the dogma are primarily why it has remained so primitive, barbaric, and rigid for over two millennia. They needed to craft a dogma that would resist and deter revision or correction to retain the illusion of its supposed infallible source - God Himself!

I am convinced that is primarily why the Bible was retained only in Latin by the Catholic Church for so long. Dare not let lay people actually read this inconsistent, contradictory, and irrational so-called infallible source!! The Protestant Reformation and the subsequent splintering of denominations and interpretations confirm the wisdom of that prior practice despite what I consider its corrupt and inherently evil intent.

None of which necessarily indicts or invalidates the underlying narrative about Jesus. However, it does indict most of the embellishments and fantastical l elements added to provide what they thought was confirmatory evidence of their "Apostolic" authority and their preferred beliefs about His purpose on earth and His Godliness! This is why it is necessary to read this mishmash with the "mind of Christ" to see the corruptions and misinterpretations for what they were, IMO.

Let's talk about the Catholic hierarchy of the 2nd century squeezing John 20:23



"If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”



into the text that they figured would give them absolute authority to establish the sacrament of penance and the confessional so that they could tell the church members that they and ONLY they had they power to forgive sins--that it couldn't be done by praying directly to God for forgiveness--and that if you died with a mortal sin on your soul and didn't get to the priest in time to confess before dying you went straight to hell to die in terrible torment forever in eternal flames.



Let's also talk about how the Catholic hierarchy used the confessional booth as a kind of way to ferret out information from people who had friends and relatives who were secretly worshiping pagan gods so that their Vatican guard could then arrest and torture these pagan worshipers into confessing Jesus or be executed.



In just about everything you can mention about the Catholic faith from its inception to the Reformation the Catholic church was about one thing: maintaining the power and privilege and wealth of the church and its popes, cardinals, and bishops who lived in splendor. It was all about the $$$$$'s. Always has been. It was never about saving souls.

The Catholic hierarchy couldn't have cared less whether a person was saved or not.
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Old 12-12-2022, 01:01 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 29 days ago)
 
18,781 posts, read 6,831,475 times
Reputation: 3524
This is like when someone tweets that they're leaving because of Elon Musk....then they continue to bash on him and everyone else for the next month.

Are you that desperate for attention?
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Old 12-12-2022, 01:23 PM
 
Location: NSW
3,741 posts, read 2,950,575 times
Reputation: 1346
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
The whole story is crazy when you think about it in terms of your ticket to heaven.

What happened to people who weren't Israelites before Jesus showed up. The old testament pretty much tells us that the near east tribes who conflicted with the Hebrews were out of luck. But what about the people in other parts of the world that were completely ignorant of Hebrews and their "one true God". What happened to them when they died?

The Bible isn't clear on that despite the fact that the non knowers made up the larger population of the world.

And then in the most bizarre fashion, God throws a curve ball and gives them a Messiah that wasn't quite what they were expecting...and they don't buy in. So God gets mad at them and opens things up for the Gentiles to get to go to Heaven.

That's nuts.
Not just those born before Christ, but then the interim period before the New Testament was written, and then Christianity became established.
That’s about a 300 year transition period.
But I don’t have the answers to how God will judge them.
No more than the current untouched indigenous peoples on North Sentinel Island etc. (despite the fact that some Christians will argue that these people would have heard of the Word)
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