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Old 11-26-2022, 02:39 PM
 
Location: North Pacific
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
In general, I think a religious person who believes in God and religion, automatically is spiritual.

But how does “being spiritual without believing in God and religion”, work?

I know there may be definitions varying from practitioner to practitioner, but can we have a few explanations or elaboration on this state of awareness?

Those who consider themselves spiritual but not religious, do they believe in life after death?
And what EXACTLY does it mean to be “spiritual” when you don’t believe in the existence God or in any religion?

Do you believe in soul?
If yes, what happens to the soul after death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But how does “being spiritual without believing in God and religion”, work?
A person can believe in God (the God of Abraham) without subscribing to 'rituals' associated with religion. The Son of God is not a religion, but a knowing. It was man that turned Him into many different religions for political benefits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Do you believe in soul?
If yes, what happens to the soul after death?
Years after my grandmother's death she visited with me in a dream. She called my name to wake me and I thought I was awake, but I was still asleep. She told me what happens when we die, but I believe that message was just for me. I'm not alone in the world, however, each person has a unique spiritual experience and guidance, tailored especially for them.
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Old 11-26-2022, 02:48 PM
 
Location: North Pacific
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
It's bogus. They don't have the guts to admit they aren't religious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
I always figured it was a way to still say you believe in God/Jesus or whomever.... but get out of going to church.
And when there isn't a church one feels comfortable in attending --- it is what it is.
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Old 11-26-2022, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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For those of you who do not understand the difference between Spirituality and Religion let me offer this explanation;
Spirituality is not the same as Religion. Religion is not Spirituality you do not have to be Religious to be Spiritual. and being religious does not make you Spiritual. Going to church every Sunday and donating a portion of your income does not make you Spiritual. It makes you a Religious follower, not necessarily a Religious person.

Spirituality is natural. We all have it, whether we know it or practice it,it is in us. And it really is a rather simple thing. We want to be happy and live a good life. To have friends and be social and have a special someone. We want to be good and do the right thing. We have some very deep questions. What happens when I die? Is there a God and who is it? how should I pray to this God? How did we get here?These questions are usually overwhelming for many people. And human nature is to turn to an authority to tell us the answers. And that is the purpose and the origin of Religion.

Religion is man made,culture based doctrine and guides its people in the practice of Spirituality. Religion is a good thing that in some cases has had bad consequences on some individuals spiritual. Not because religion is bad, But because it was applied in a bad way. Because religion is man-made and cultural-based, it naturally has some of the rules and taboos of that particular culture built into it. Unfortunately for some, many cultures have chosen to use the "Fear of God" to enforce the man-made rules of that culture.
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
For those of you who do not understand the difference between Spirituality and Religion let me offer this explanation;
Spirituality is not the same as Religion. Religion is not Spirituality you do not have to be Religious to be Spiritual. and being religious does not make you Spiritual. Going to church every Sunday and donating a portion of your income does not make you Spiritual. It makes you a Religious follower, not necessarily a Religious person.

Spirituality is natural. We all have it, whether we know it or practice it,it is in us. We want to be happy and live a good life. To have friends and be social and have a special someone. We want to be good and do the right thing. We have some very deep questions. What happens when I die? Is there a God and who is it? how should I pray to this God? How did we get here?These questions are usually overwhelming for many people. And human nature is to turn to an authority to tell us the answers. And that is the purpose and the origin of Religion.

Religion is man made,culture based doctrine and guides its people in the practice of Spirituality. Religion is a good thing that in some cases has had bad consequences on some individuals spiritual. Not because religion is bad, But because it was applied in a bad way. Because religion is man-made and cultural-based, it naturally has some of the rules and taboos of that particular culture built into it. Unfortunately for some, many cultures have chosen to use the "Fear of God" to enforce the man-made rules of that culture.
I agree with most of your explanation here, but as I also explained in prior posts, I'm not sure I would agree with what I put in bold from your comment here...

My only quibble if one might cal it that is the apparent necessity to use the word spirituality to describe all the rest in that paragraph. It is perhaps the right word for someone who believes in a god, but is it for an atheist like me? I completely agree we want to be happy and live a good life and all the rest. Simple indeed and hardly overwhelming for me, but much like religion is "man made." So is the word spirituality and how some people choose to use the word even when perhaps not appropriate.

There are other ways to describe what we all feel, want and desire in the way of living a good life. To enjoy life in all the ways possible without necessarily calling it spiritual in any case...

Last edited by LearnMe; 11-27-2022 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:35 AM
 
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Speaking of enjoying life...

Time to sign off from here now and begin preparing our customary BSB. Something me and my wife have been enjoying as a Sunday ritual for a long time now. Sometimes even the smallest of simple things can be a big contributor to the goal of "living life to the fullest." Then if the 9rs win later in the afternoon, all the better! Cheers and the best of Sundays to you and yours however you want to describe the goal, effort and ways to achieve the happiest most meaningful life possible...
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Old 11-27-2022, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I agree with most of your explanation here, but as I also explained in prior posts, I'm not sure I would agree with what I put in bold from your comment here...
So ptsum is putting the thought before us that spirituality as he defines it (as some innate faculty that is obtainable in a pure form of connection to the Divine or transcendent that is free of man-made dogma and ritual) is "natural", something that all possess whether or not they are fully aware of it. Embodied by his father's idea of nature-as-cathedral.

Accepting that at face value, do all of us have it? If we do, I would say that not all of us are as connected to it.

I'm in a conversation on another forum with a guy who was areligious and perhaps even atheistic as a young man, even a bit antagonistic / dismissive toward religious ideation. Then one day he claims to have hiked up a hill and met a being of pure light that he understood to be Jesus and despite even after that fighting this revelation eventually submitted to Christianity at least in a personal, non-organized sense.

What is remarkable to me about this guy's experience is that some people (such as yours truly) literally NEVER have anything remotely resembling this sort of realistic-seeming personal subjective experience with divine overtones. I can't relate to it. All I know is that if there's anything to an interventionist deity trying to commune with us in any way, it can't rely on such experiences because many of us simply aren't capable of them. I am pretty heady and intellectually oriented to reality, so this kind of thing isn't something I could fully credit even if it DID happen to me. But I can't make it happen organically. Maybe if I fasted and meditated for days I'd start to have odd experiences but then who wouldn't? But it's certainly not going to happen to most people incidental to walking down some forest path.

The kind of "spirituality" that makes sense to me is embodied by, of all people, Jim Carrey, a guy in a long line of public personalities that was nearly destroyed by his public life, had to take a great big step back and do a lot of soul-searching, and now says that he has learned to let go of all this identification with his acting accomplishments and public adulation of him. As he said in a famous speech accepting a Golden Globe award, "When I go to bed at night I am not just any ordinary guy going to bed. I am Jim Carrey, two-time Golden Globe winner tossing down for some much-deserved rest. And when I dream, I don't have ordinary dreams. No, sir. I dream of being Jim Carrey, THREE-time golden globe winner. Because THEN it will finally be enough and will seem real. And I will finally be able to end this terrible search." Now there's a guy who has seen past what he calls the "avatar" he has created and no longer feels the need to live up to it. That sort of spirituality, the choice between living motivated by love vs. fear, I can relate to. No gods needed, though you can certainly insert them if it helps you.
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Old 11-28-2022, 10:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
So ptsum is putting the thought before us that spirituality as he defines it (as some innate faculty that is obtainable in a pure form of connection to the Divine or transcendent that is free of man-made dogma and ritual) is "natural", something that all possess whether or not they are fully aware of it. Embodied by his father's idea of nature-as-cathedral.

Accepting that at face value, do all of us have it? If we do, I would say that not all of us are as connected to it.

I'm in a conversation on another forum with a guy who was areligious and perhaps even atheistic as a young man, even a bit antagonistic / dismissive toward religious ideation. Then one day he claims to have hiked up a hill and met a being of pure light that he understood to be Jesus and despite even after that fighting this revelation eventually submitted to Christianity at least in a personal, non-organized sense.

What is remarkable to me about this guy's experience is that some people (such as yours truly) literally NEVER have anything remotely resembling this sort of realistic-seeming personal subjective experience with divine overtones. I can't relate to it. All I know is that if there's anything to an interventionist deity trying to commune with us in any way, it can't rely on such experiences because many of us simply aren't capable of them. I am pretty heady and intellectually oriented to reality, so this kind of thing isn't something I could fully credit even if it DID happen to me. But I can't make it happen organically. Maybe if I fasted and meditated for days I'd start to have odd experiences but then who wouldn't? But it's certainly not going to happen to most people incidental to walking down some forest path.

The kind of "spirituality" that makes sense to me is embodied by, of all people, Jim Carrey, a guy in a long line of public personalities that was nearly destroyed by his public life, had to take a great big step back and do a lot of soul-searching, and now says that he has learned to let go of all this identification with his acting accomplishments and public adulation of him. As he said in a famous speech accepting a Golden Globe award, "When I go to bed at night I am not just any ordinary guy going to bed. I am Jim Carrey, two-time Golden Globe winner tossing down for some much-deserved rest. And when I dream, I don't have ordinary dreams. No, sir. I dream of being Jim Carrey, THREE-time golden globe winner. Because THEN it will finally be enough and will seem real. And I will finally be able to end this terrible search." Now there's a guy who has seen past what he calls the "avatar" he has created and no longer feels the need to live up to it. That sort of spirituality, the choice between living motivated by love vs. fear, I can relate to. No gods needed, though you can certainly insert them if it helps you.
On the one hand, much like you, I am curious about all these personal testaments about experiencing something people call spirituality. As in some communication or connection or sense of a god thing that never has happened for me either. Why not I wonder? Some like to argue I am not open to feeling or receiving such a thing, but I think quite the opposite. If it is because I am grounded in reality now as I am an adult, then why not when I was a young believer? Why never?

It is very hard to believe that so many other people who claim such things are somehow convincing themselves about something that isn't really happening. Not really there, but I can't say they don't seem awfully sincere about their claims along those lines.

Then too, however, there are enough people like you who make no such claims. Have had no such experiences. Have no need or want or expectations along those lines. For me too, it just is what it is (or is not), and I can't do anything to change this. For me it is no different from believing there or deceased people trying to make contact with the living, or ghosts living in the attic, or angels in holy places. Only if/when I see or experience anything along those lines, will I have any good reason to believe such things exist. With all due respect to those who claim those experiences. No doubt they have or are experiencing something, but I'm not sure it's what they think it is. I for one certainly can't kid myself or convince myself into believing in something I can't observe or know to exist. Even if I DID want to...

Fortunately, life is plenty good for me even with all it's ups and downs, and I am not wanting of anything. As some like to say, "enough is as good as a feast." I am very fortunate to have more than enough. More than I deserve, and I could die in my sleep tonight quite content about the life I have been allowed to enjoy so far.

Last edited by LearnMe; 11-28-2022 at 11:03 AM..
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Old 11-28-2022, 11:06 AM
 
60,401 posts, read 36,077,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
On the one hand, much like you, I am curious about all these personal testaments about experiencing something people call spirituality. As in some communication or connection or sense of a god thing that never has happened for me either. Why not I wonder? Some like to argue I am not open to feeling or receiving such a thing, but I think quite the opposite. If it is because I am grounded in reality now as I am an adult, then why not when I was a young believer? Why never?

It is very hard to believe that so many other people who claim such things are somehow convincing themselves about something that isn't really happening. Not really there, but I can't say they don't seem awfully sincere about their claims along those lines.

Then too, however, there are enough people like you who make no such claims. Have had not such experiences. Have no need or want or expectations along those lines. For me too, it just is what it is (or is not), and I can't do anything to change this. For me it is no different from believing there or deceased people trying to make contact with the living, or ghosts living in the attic, or angels in holy places. Only if/when I see or experience anything along those lines, will I have any good reason to believe such things exist. With all due respect to those who claim those experiences. No doubt they hare or are experiencing something, but I'm not sure it's what they think it is. I for one certainly can't kid myself or convince myself into believing in something I can't observe or know to exist. Even if I DID want to...

Fortunately, life is plenty good for me even with all it's ups and downs, and I am not wanting of anything. As some like to say, "enough is as good as a feast." I am very fortunate to have more than enough. More than I deserve, and I could die in my sleep tonight quite content about the life I have been allowed to enjoy so far.
As someone previously "grounded in reality" for 30+ years, I completely relate to your situation. That is why it was such a total shock and life-changing event that required DECADES of search, study, and reasoning to satisfy my current understanding with a new "grounding in Reality."
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Old 11-28-2022, 04:11 PM
 
Location: North Pacific
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
On the one hand, much like you, I am curious about all these personal testaments about experiencing something people call spirituality. As in some communication or connection or sense of a god thing that never has happened for me either. Why not I wonder? Some like to argue I am not open to feeling or receiving such a thing, but I think quite the opposite. If it is because I am grounded in reality now as I am an adult, then why not when I was a young believer? Why never?

It is very hard to believe that so many other people who claim such things are somehow convincing themselves about something that isn't really happening. Not really there, but I can't say they don't seem awfully sincere about their claims along those lines.

Then too, however, there are enough people like you who make no such claims. Have had no such experiences. Have no need or want or expectations along those lines. For me too, it just is what it is (or is not), and I can't do anything to change this. For me it is no different from believing there or deceased people trying to make contact with the living, or ghosts living in the attic, or angels in holy places. Only if/when I see or experience anything along those lines, will I have any good reason to believe such things exist. With all due respect to those who claim those experiences. No doubt they have or are experiencing something, but I'm not sure it's what they think it is. I for one certainly can't kid myself or convince myself into believing in something I can't observe or know to exist. Even if I DID want to...

Fortunately, life is plenty good for me even with all it's ups and downs, and I am not wanting of anything. As some like to say, "enough is as good as a feast." I am very fortunate to have more than enough. More than I deserve, and I could die in my sleep tonight quite content about the life I have been allowed to enjoy so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
... but I can't say they don't seem awfully sincere about their claims along those lines.
They can't open up, because they will face ridicule if they do. They will keep it to themselves or they will make vague comments.
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Old 11-28-2022, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
They can't open up, because they will face ridicule if they do. They will keep it to themselves or they will make vague comments.
So these christians you're talking about...who have the 'all powerful' go on their side are afraid? What cowards.
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