The Off-Topic Thread (Islam, punished, pope, religions)

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I remain a little confused by what "Jewish pride" means to you, but no matter.

I’ve discussed it with you before, and I’d be happy to discuss it again on a different day, when I have more time at my disposal (today is a travel day for me).

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I can't say you haven't caused me to think more about what you are describing than I would otherwise normally be inclined to do. I've been trying to distinguish what you are describing from what anyone might feel about their family lineage or heritage. How might you or I or anyone else be different along these lines? More or less?

I think part of the issue is that you seem to conflate pride with chauvinism. They are two different things. While chauvinism can present itself as a distorted sort of pride, simply taking pride in who you are and where you come from is not at all synonymous with feelings of superiority or contempt over other people.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Among all the memories I have about this person, I always remember how my father would often complain about how his friend would overly exude his pride about Spain and/or his Spanish heritage. What any of us would surely describe as "prideful" about his heritage, and far as my father was concerned, too much so.

And as (if I recall correctly) a non-Hispanic multi-generational American of British Isles heritage, your father never had to face any adversity by virtue of his background from an ethnic or linguistic or perspective. Your father could take for granted that his perspective was more or less the “default” one in terms of American cultural norms. Your father’s friend did not have that same luxury. It’s understandable that having to undertake the hard work and adversity in moving to a new country with a new culture and a new language, might make someone more conscious (and dare I say, prideful) of their roots.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

On a scale of 1 to 10 when it comes to one's pride about who they are, their heritage, their religion or whatever, I suppose I continue to wonder how you are rating the people who you say are prideful about being Jewish. I like to think I lean more toward the humble end when it comes to being prideful about such things and probably better appreciate those who lean the same way.

Though again it doesn't matter to me from the standpoint of being a fan, I like to think both Fagan and Dylan lean more toward the 1 end of the spectrum rather than the 10. So far anyway, I've got no reason to think either doesn't.

You keep using the term “humble,” but it doesn’t really fit in the context of whether someone feels pride, shame, or indifference toward their background. Humility (or the lack thereof) might enter the picture of someone is a chauvinist, but again, that’s a completely different sort of personality trait.

I certainly wouldn’t claim Donald Fagen is a “10” on the Jewish pride scale. If “5” is a median score and “0” indicates total indifference, I might give him a ~6.5 based on the sense of pleasure he seems to derive from his “hyper-self awareness” of his Jewish heritage (and that’s his terminology, not mine). I’d probably rate myself an 8.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

PS: Probably a topic best left alone, but I understand "Neighborhood Bully" to be more about persecution rather than Zionism. Again, two very different things. Injustice. Something like what "Hurricane" was also about...

No, it’s definitely a Zionist anthem, and I can tell you that as someone who underwent seven years of Jewish Sunday school education, leading up to my Bar Mitzvah, and obtained an additional two years of education to become Confirmed. It represents Israel as a David surrounded by Goliaths and a fully peaceful nation that has no fault whatsoever in the Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. I say this as someone who considers himself Post-Zionist, as opposed to plain old Zionist, so I’m hardly a right-winger espousing the merits of any Israeli propaganda machine. Funnily enough, this supposedly wasn’t Dylan’s intention (and I say “supposedly” because taking such a contrarian approach is a very Dylan thing to do). But even if Dylan didn’t set out to write such a Zionist anthem, the plain words are indicative of one.

[Tzaphkiel]

pride is not boasting.
they are not the same thing.

at all.

nor does pride indicate an absence of humbleness.
in my view, it is inaccurate to conflate those.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

I’ve discussed it with you before, and I’d be happy to discuss it again on a different day, when I have more time at my disposal (today is a travel day for me).

I think part of the issue is that you seem to conflate pride with chauvinism. They are two different things. While chauvinism can present itself as a distorted sort of pride, simply taking pride in who you are and where you come from is not at all synonymous with feelings of superiority or contempt over other people.

And as (if I recall correctly) a non-Hispanic multi-generational American of British Isles heritage, your father never had to face any adversity by virtue of his background from an ethnic or linguistic or perspective. Your father could take for granted that his perspective was more or less the “default” one in terms of American cultural norms. Your father’s friend did not have that same luxury. It’s understandable that having to undertake the hard work and adversity in moving to a new country with a new culture and a new language, might make someone more conscious (and dare I say, prideful) of their roots.

You keep using the term “humble,” but it doesn’t really fit in the context of whether someone feels pride, shame, or indifference toward their background. Humility (or the lack thereof) might enter the picture of someone is a chauvinist, but again, that’s a completely different sort of personality trait.

I certainly wouldn’t claim Donald Fagen is a “10” on the Jewish pride scale. If “5” is a median score and “0” indicates total indifference, I might give him a ~6.5 based on the sense of pleasure he seems to derive from his “hyper-self awareness” of his Jewish heritage (and that’s his terminology, not mine). I’d probably rate myself an 8.

No, it’s definitely a Zionist anthem, and I can tell you that as someone who underwent seven years of Jewish Sunday school education, leading up to my Bar Mitzvah, and obtained an additional two years of education to become Confirmed. It represents Israel as a David surrounded by Goliaths and a fully peaceful nation that has no fault whatsoever in the Arab-Israeli and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. I say this as someone who considers himself Post-Zionist, as opposed to plain old Zionist, so I’m hardly a right-winger espousing the merits of any Israeli propaganda machine. Funnily enough, this supposedly wasn’t Dylan’s intention (and I say “supposedly” because taking such a contrarian approach is a very Dylan thing to do). But even if Dylan didn’t set out to write such a Zionist anthem, the plain words are indicative of one.

Seems clear to me as I catch up with this thread that the confusion stems not from my knowing what prideful, chauvinism, superiority, contempt, virtue or any of the rest means to me. I've just been trying to understand what prideful means to you, as you have described Fagan and/or Dylan. Your rating of Fagan, yourself and all the rest helps me better understand YOU now.

Whether or not I would rate Fagan the same, again I would not given my limited knowledge about him personally. If you would rate yourself an 8, I'd be curious how you would explain what it is you do or how you act that ranks you so high on the prideful scale. I also thought to pull up the quick definition of the word to be sure we're talking about the same thing.

pride·ful
adjective
having an excessively high opinion of oneself.

About my father and the rest, I suspect you are making more inappropriate assumptions. Let me fill in some blanks here for you...

My father's father and mother were born in England. My mother's parents were born in Italy. Lots of English, Italians and Germans immigrated to Argentina. My father and mother were born in Argentina. They left Argentina and immigrated to America to escape the fascist regime of Juan Perón. He brought his mother along too. Perhaps not the hardship you describe, but the need to leave their mother country, their family and culture was very difficult for them (though they were not ones to make a big deal about it). Both my parents were fluent in Spanish, my father fluent in both English and Spanish. I was raised in a Spanish speaking household.

I am not sure what assumptions you are making about his Spanish friend either, but he suffered incredible hardships of a different kind. Two of his four children who suffered from a very rare degenerative disease that took their lives at a young age. Something he too never drew much attention toward. He was my father's first employer in the states. Over time they parted company from a career standpoint but became and remained close friends for the rest of their years (until my father died first). Rather than not "sharing the same luxury," they shared much in the way of the immigrant's story. Including the hardships that I think helped to bond their friendship, along with sharing the fact they were both fluent in Spanish and English. Ultimately, I really don't think my father's Spanish friend had any more reason to be "prideful" of his roots than my father did about his, but they were no doubt different about this sort of thing.

Apparently (according to my father) his Spanish friend would typically make everything about how the Spanish way was best or special. Spain so wonderful compared to other countries, and go on and on a bit too long about all such things Spain related; culture, food, people, language -- everything. My father had similar fondness about Argentina, but he was not one to go on about that or about himself as a rule. That's more the difference between what I know to be pridefulness and humility. I much prefer the way of humility. Regardless the reasons to be otherwise.

You are probably right to note what people can take for granted, but I would be careful not to think most people suffer from hardships that others take for granted. Regardless the hardship. Whether we be talking about Jewish people, Palestinians, people escaping political persecution, poverty, violence, abuse, slavery, racism due to skin color. Bigotry related to sexism, homophobia, xenophobia. You name it. The list is long and varied and how people manage themselves despite all manner of hardships can be described in all manner of different ways. "Good, bad and ugly." Ultimately everyone is forced to move on either way, or dwell on the past perhaps. People can go either way.

You have also had me thinking more about "Neighborhood Bully" than I expected. I can agree it can easily be considered a "Zionist anthem" if you like, but I'm not able to so easily agree with your further description of what all that means. Especially from other than a Jewish perspective or the perspective of some Jewish people. Not all. I find some of the lyrics Dylan wrote in that song a little biased as well, but here we get into that age old question of perspective that can be so decidedly skewed one way or the other depending on the biases involved.

I'll just say that to be persecuted as a people is one thing. A bad, wrong thing at that. No question. What a people will do about being persecuted or having been persecuted is another that deserves the same sort of scrutiny and objective judgement. "Two wrongs don't make a right" as they say, and when it comes to this topic, there are just too many wrongs to count. Coming and going from all directions since way back before WWII finally came to an end. WWII and war in general being yet another unbelievable hardship for all involved that no one should take for granted. Or go back in human history as long as you like. Not a pretty picture for far too many people all over the world. Beyond belief in so many horrible ways. The violence extensively described in this book I'm reading about the French Revolution just one another countless examples hard to believe and that never seem to end. The perpetual "man's inhumanity to man."

I hope you have safe travels wherever they may be taking you. Cheers and thanks again.

[LearnMe]

PS: I meant to include the example of my mother-in-law and pridefulness too. Perhaps to better describe this distinction between pridefulness and humility I've been trying to better define. My mother-in-law lives in SLC, Utah, and she is one of these people who is prideful as can be about Utah. How? Every time anyone says anything positive about another state, she'll quickly point out how Utah has the same if not better. Everything to her way of thinking is about how everything compares to Utah, and never quite as good. Regardless whether right or wrong, she makes a point of making Utah part of the subject with any invitation whatsoever.

"We just enjoyed a trip through Yosemite."

"Really? We've got the most beautiful mountains and canyons here in Zion."

"Real estate is expensive here in California."

"Oh! Property values are exploding here in Utah, because so many Californians are moving here."

"We went to a great Mexican restaurant here last night."

"We've got so many good restaurants to choose from here in Utah..."

Of course a bit here and there is one thing. We all talk about where we live with some preference I suppose. (Most of us lucky ones anyway). With some bias, but with some people it's more like an obvious competition if not obsession. Tends to be a bit much with some people. A bit thick, and though my mother-in-law is a wonderful woman in so many other respects, she's just got this "blind spot" about promoting Utah that is beyond the pale. I'm certainly not the only one who has noticed this either. Even my wife, her daughter, readily admits her mother has something mental going on there that is unbecoming and hard to explain...

[LearnMe]

Oh!

And finally! Go Argentina on Sunday!

Messi. Goooooaaaaalllll!

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Seems clear to me as I catch up with this thread that the confusion stems not from my knowing what prideful, chauvinism, superiority, contempt, virtue or any of the rest means to me.

My biggest sticking point was your ongoing use of the term “humble.” But I realize now that the adjective “prideful” has a much more stilted dictionary definition than the noun “pride,” and humility (or a lack thereof) may sometimes fit in that context.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I've just been trying to understand what prideful means to you, as you have described Fagan and/or Dylan. Your rating of Fagan, yourself and all the rest helps me better understand YOU now.

But we may need to take a brief step back as noted above and discussed in more detail below.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Whether or not I would rate Fagan the same, again I would not given my limited knowledge about him personally. If you would rate yourself an 8, I'd be curious how you would explain what it is you do or how you act that ranks you so high on the prideful scale. I also thought to pull up the quick definition of the word to be sure we're talking about the same thing.

It’s just a guess based on the amount of information I have, which is also fairly limited. I will also amend each of my uses of the term “prideful” with plain old “pride” (or other appropriate form thereof) per the dictionary definitions below.

I also wouldn’t say I’m so high on the pride scale. Assuming a normal distribution, with 5 as the median, and 10 as the 100th percentile, that still places me within 1.5 standard deviations of the mean. I don’t mean to bury the lede, but I’ll expand on that when I have some more time at my disposal—perhaps this weekend.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

pride·ful
adjective
having an excessively high opinion of oneself.

Ahhh, but that’s not the definition of pride, which does not automatically carry such a negative connotation, the primary definition of the noun being “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.” And perhaps our disconnect in part stems from me using “prideful” to simply describe those who exhibit pride, as opposed to an excessively lofty self-perception. Anyway, you taught me something new today, and I will be more mindful of the negative connotations of the adjective in the future.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

About my father and the rest, I suspect you are making more inappropriate assumptions. Let me fill in some blanks here for you...

I made inferences based on past information you provided. Obviously, some of these were either incorrect or incomplete, and I appreciate the additional information. In any event, I intended no disrespect to your father.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

My father's father and mother were born in England. My mother's parents were born in Italy. Lots of English, Italians and Germans immigrated to Argentina. My father and mother were born in Argentina. They left Argentina and immigrated to America to escape the fascist regime of Juan Perón. He brought his mother along too. Perhaps not the hardship you describe, but the need to leave their mother country was very difficult for them (though they were not ones to make a big deal about it). Both my parents were fluent in Spanish, my father fluent in both English and Spanish. I was raised in a Spanish speaking household.

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I am not sure what assumptions you are making about his Spanish friend either, but he suffered incredible hardships of a different kind. Two of his four children who suffered from a very rare degenerative disease that took their lives at a young age. Something he too never drew much attention toward. He was my father's first employer in the states. Over time they parted company from a career standpoint but became and remained close friends for the rest of their years (until my father died first). Rather than not "sharing the same luxury," they shared much in the way of the immigrant's story. Including the hardships that I think helped to bond their friendship, along with sharing the fact they were both fluent in Spanish and English. Ultimately, I really don't think my father's Spanish friend had any more reason to be "prideful" of his roots than my father did about his, but they were no doubt different about this sort of thing.

I don’t think that simply being proud of your background is objectively good or bad. Chauvinism is a problem, but that’s an overlay of pride and is by no means synonymous with the concept.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Apparently (according to my father) his Spanish friend would typically make everything about how the Spanish way was best. Spain so wonderful compared to other countries, and go on and on a bit too long about all such things Spain related; culture, food, people, language -- everything. My father had similar fondness about Argentina, but he was not one to go on about that or about himself as a rule. That's more the difference between what I know to be pridefulness and humility. I much prefer the way of humility. Regardless the reasons to be otherwise.

I’ve told you this before, and I’ll tell you again that I take pride in my Jewish background while expressly rejecting the notions that Jews or Jewish culture are superior to any other people or way of life. In that regard, I have no shortage of humility, and I will call out other Jewish people when their “pride” appears to present itself as supremacy.

In terms of going “on and on a bit too long,” about one’s background, I don’t think that’s really a question of humility (or a lack thereof). Certainly, droning on about the same subject (no matter what it is) makes one a bore, and perhaps self-centered in nature. I like to think of myself as a good conversationalist, but I won’t claim perfection in that (or any other) regard. I don’t bring up Jews or Judaism in conversation for no good reason and never try to force it into a conversation. And even when the opportunity presents itself, I often see no reason to go there. I don’t think any of our neighbors, with whom we have cordial but not close relationships, know I’m Jewish. I could have mentioned it on the many occasions I’ve been wished a “Merry Christmas” (which I don’t mind because they mean it in a friendly and not obstinate way, and I guess I do sort of celebrate since we have a Christmas tree at my wife’s request), but I just had no interest in starting a more involved conversation on the subject.

A big thing that distinguishes me from both Dylan and Fagen, even though I’m just as ethnically Jewish as they are: I don’t “look” Jewish, whereas they very much do (Fagen even talks about that in one of his Eminent Hipsters essays, and he seemed to believe his more stereotypically Jewish looks, in contract with his parents, made his father, who experienced some overt anti-Semitism in his formative years, somewhat nervous). I’m not exactly 6’5” with platinum blond hair, but my features and coloring are very broadly Northwestern European in appearance, for lack of a better term.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

You are probably right to note what people can take for granted, but I would be careful not to think most people suffer from hardships that others take for granted. Regardless the hardship. Whether we be talking about Jewish people, Palestinians, people escaping political persecution, slavery, racism due to skin color. Bigotry related to sexism, homophobia, xenophobia. You name it. The list is long and varied and how people manage themselves despite all manner of hardships can be described in all manner of different ways. "Good, bad and ugly." Ultimately everyone is forced to move on either way, or dwell on the past perhaps. People can go either way.

I think we all can take our relative privileges in life for granted at times, and I absolutely include myself in that truism. Again, I intended no disrespect to your father and apologize if my comments came off as such.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

You have also had me thinking more about "Neighborhood Bully" than I expected. I can agree it can easily be considered a "Zionist anthem" if you like, but I'm not able to so easily agree with your further description of what all that means. Especially from other than a Jewish perspective or the perspective of some Jewish people. Not all. I find some of the lyrics Dylan wrote in that song a little biased as well, but here we get into that age old question of perspective that can be so decidedly skewed one way or the other depending on the biases involved.

I feel like some of your resistance stems from the fact that you really like Bob Dylan and don’t want to believe he intended to create a song with those sorts of right-wing Zionist implications (again, implications that I don’t at all support). And that’s fine. I won’t claim that I’m not biased with respect to people who I like and admire. But the relationship diaspora Jews and Israel is often a very complex one, and I can tell you that whether or not Dylan actually intended it, those sorts of lyrics are part and parcel with an uncritically pro-Israel narrative from the perspective of Jews from the United States and other western and western-facing diaspora nations.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I'll just say that to be persecuted as a people is one thing. A bad, wrong thing at that. No question. What a people will do about being persecuted or having been persecuted is another that deserves the same sort of scrutiny and objective judgement. "Two wrongs don't make a right" as they say, and when it comes to this topic, there are just too many wrongs to count. Coming and going from all directions since way back before WWII finally came to an end. WWII and war in general being yet another unbelievable hardship for all involved that no one should take for granted.

I couldn’t agree more. Israel should be judged according to the standards of any other nation—no more and no less.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

PS: I meant to include the example of my mother-in-law and pridefulness too. Perhaps to better describe this distinction between pridefulness and humility I've been trying to better define. My mother-in-law lives in SLC, Utah, and she is one of these people who is prideful as can be about Utah. How? Every time anyone says anything positive about another state, she'll quickly point out how Utah has the same if not better. Everything to her way of thinking is about how everything compares to Utah, and never quite as good. Regardless whether right or wrong, she makes a point of making Utah part of the subject with any invitation whatsoever.

"We just enjoyed a trip through Yosemite."

"Really? We've got the most beautiful mountains and canyons here in Zion."

"Real estate is expensive here in California."

"Oh! Property values are exploding here in Utah, because so many Californians are moving here."

"We went to a great Mexican restaurant here last night."

"We've got so many good restaurants to choose from here in Utah..."

Of course a bit here and there is one thing. We all talk about where we live with some preference I suppose. (Most of us lucky ones anyway). With some bias, but with some people it's more like an obvious competition if not obsession. Tends to be a bit much with some people. A bit thick, and though my mother-in-law is a wonderful woman in so many other respects, she's just got this "blind spot" about promoting Utah that is beyond the pale. I'm certainly not the only one who has noticed this either. Even my wife, her daughter, readily admits her mother has something mental going on there that is unbecoming and hard to explain...

That is not something I do, and I agree that it’s an off-putting tendency.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

My biggest sticking point was your ongoing use of the term “humble.” But I realize now that the adjective “prideful” has a much more stilted dictionary definition than the noun “pride,” and humility (or a lack thereof) may sometimes fit in that context.


But we may need to take a brief step back as noted above and discussed in more detail below.


It’s just a guess based on the amount of information I have, which is also fairly limited. I will also amend each of my uses of the term “prideful” with plain old “pride” (or other appropriate form thereof) per the dictionary definitions below.

I also wouldn’t say I’m so high on the pride scale. Assuming a normal distribution, with 5 as the median, and 10 as the 100th percentile, that still places me within 1.5 standard deviations of the mean. I don’t mean to bury the lede, but I’ll expand on that when I have some more time at my disposal—perhaps this weekend.


Ahhh, but that’s not the definition of pride, which does not automatically carry such a negative connotation, the primary definition of the noun being “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.” And perhaps our disconnect in part stems from me using “prideful” to simply describe those who exhibit pride, as opposed to an excessively lofty self-perception. Anyway, you taught me something new today, and I will be more mindful of the negative connotations of the adjective in the future.


I made inferences based on past information you provided. Obviously, some of these were either incorrect or incomplete, and I appreciate the additional information. In any event, I intended no disrespect to your father.


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.


I don’t think that simply being proud of your background is objectively good or bad. Chauvinism is a problem, but that’s an overlay of pride and is by no means synonymous with the concept.


I’ve told you this before, and I’ll tell you again that I take pride in my Jewish background while expressly rejecting the notions that Jews or Jewish culture are superior to any other people or way of life. In that regard, I have no shortage of humility, and I will call out other Jewish people when their “pride” appears to present itself as supremacy.

In terms of going “on and on a bit too long,” about one’s background, I don’t think that’s really a question of humility (or a lack thereof). Certainly, droning on about the same subject (no matter what it is) makes one a bore, and perhaps self-centered in nature. I like to think of myself as a good conversationalist, but I won’t claim perfection in that (or any other) regard. I don’t bring up Jews or Judaism in conversation for no good reason and never try to force it into a conversation. And even when the opportunity presents itself, I often see no reason to go there. I don’t think any of our neighbors, with whom we have cordial but not close relationships, know I’m Jewish. I could have mentioned it on the many occasions I’ve been wished a “Merry Christmas” (which I don’t mind because they mean it in a friendly and not obstinate way, and I guess I do sort of celebrate since we have a Christmas tree at my wife’s request), but I just had no interest in starting a more involved conversation on the subject.

A big thing that distinguishes me from both Dylan and Fagen, even though I’m just as ethnically Jewish as they are: I don’t “look” Jewish, whereas they very much do (Fagen even talks about that in one of his Eminent Hipsters essays, and he seemed to believe his more stereotypically Jewish looks, in contract with his parents, made his father, who experienced some overt anti-Semitism in his formative years, somewhat nervous). I’m not exactly 6’5” with platinum blond hair, but my features and coloring are very broadly Northwestern European in appearance, for lack of a better term.


I think we all can take our relative privileges in life for granted at times, and I absolutely include myself in that truism. Again, I intended no disrespect to your father and apologize if my comments came off as such.


I feel like some of your resistance stems from the fact that you really like Bob Dylan and don’t want to believe he intended to create a song with those sorts of right-wing Zionist implications (again, implications that I don’t at all support). And that’s fine. I won’t claim that I’m not biased with respect to people who I like and admire. But the relationship diaspora Jews and Israel is often a very complex one, and I can tell you that whether or not Dylan actually intended it, those sorts of lyrics are part and parcel with an uncritically pro-Israel narrative from the perspective of Jews from the United States and other western and western-facing diaspora nations.


I couldn’t agree more. Israel should be judged according to the standards of any other nation—no more and no less.


That is not something I do, and I agree that it’s an off-putting tendency.

I've been trying to sign off for awhile now, and just as I was finally about to, I find your reply here. No doubt topics we could spend some time on, and I too have little left at the moment, so just this I'm inclined to leave behind until next time...

Now that we've better zeroed in on what prideful means, I think we're closer to understanding one another and why I was referring to humility by way of contrast. Progress!

No offense on any count taken. Please no worries. I'm glad if I've been able to just clear up some confusion and/or fill in the blanks as appropriate. As commonly necessary in this forum.

I completely agree that being proud -- about anything -- is necessarily a good or bad thing. It's simply a matter of how we express pride and/or humility about what we're proud about is all. We all know the extremes of either end when we see it. No matter the source of pride. Some good. Some bad. Some ugly.

I should probably drop these examples of coming off as superior. That is just one of many kinds of pridefulness I don't condone. Sometimes, however, it's very easy for people to let their pride in something appear as if what they are proud about is superior in some way. Without them realizing it. About going on and on a bit too long as well. Also a matter of opinion or subjectivity not necessarily commonly shared but also part of these differences I throw into the mix of being prideful, having pride and/or humility. Otherwise perhaps just a matter of "emotional intelligence" that some people have while others seem lacking. Those lacking rarely if ever know it.

I always get a kick out of how Jewish people use the example of "Merry Christmas" and/or the rest of the Christmas trappings and traditions. I'm not a Christian, but I can't imagine taking any sort of offense because someone wishes me a merry Christmas, or even better wants to kiss me under the mistletoe! I am an atheist, and I have no problem whatsoever participating in all things Christmas, short of going to church or any of the more religious rituals I don't believe in or participate with. Otherwise, what's the big or small deal either way? Regardless where we're from or what we believe? I certainly have never told anyone I'm an atheist when wished a merry Christmas in any case. Doesn't even occur to me.

I suppose you know more about what Jewish people look like, but I'm not that good at making those distinctions. Most of the Jewish people I know are mostly impossible to distinguish from everyday white people far as I'm concerned. They certainly have that "leg up" when it comes to racism as compared to black people for example, though I do know some people look decidedly Jewish. I don't think they have the same sort of problem either, but I don't know too much about what fuels anti-semitism either.

I don't have any resistance with respect to Bob Dylan like you seem to believe. I only really closely considered the lyrics of "Neighborhood Bully" because you brought it to light. I would agree or disagree with Dylan just like I would you or anyone else about Zionism, and I don't have any problem recognizing the Zionism about "Neighborhood Bully" either. Especially as I considered the lyrics more carefully.

Again thanks again and all the best to you and yours.

Sincerely,

LM

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Now that we've better zeroed in on what prideful means, I think we're closer to understanding one another and why I was referring to humility by way of contrast. Progress!

Yes, and it seems our opinions on the subject are not that divergent after all. Focusing on a couple other outstanding points:

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I always get a kick out of how Jewish people use the example of "Merry Christmas" and/or the rest of the Christmas trappings and traditions.

While I don’t think you realize this (and, to be clear, I am not personally offended because we’ve had enough discussions for me to better understand your intentions), that’s a very demeaning statement to make and exemplifies the concept of Gentile privilege.

I don’t agree with every item on this list (and some items, while certainly true of Jews, are also true of some other peoples). However, I think that most of the examples of Gentile privilege hit the mark, and one of them is as follows:

Never having to spend two to three months every years listening to music, watching tv specials and being bombarded with advertisements related to a holiday you don’t celebrate while occasionally the majority culture will throw you a few nice gestures about a minor holiday they assume is important because it happens around the same time.

The Christmas season is a major time of the year which reminds Jews in diaspora nations that we are different, from everyone else, and many non-Jews who are often not hateful people will look at you funny, and even express pity, if and when you tell them you don’t celebrate Christmas.

It’s a weird sort of winter holiday season paternalism. Part of the reason I no longer gently (but politely!) correct most people, unless they “wish” me a Merry Christmas in a defiantly obnoxious way (and those people absolutely exist, namely the “War on Christmas” types) is that you’re often seen as some type of party pooper or buzzkill if you simply point out your holiday traditions differ from the norm.

It’s hardly the worst thing in the world to happen to a Jew because they’re Jewish, but it gets very grating and tiresome and definitely fits in the realm of micro-aggressions.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I'm not a Christian, but I can't imagine taking any sort of offense because someone wishes me a merry Christmas, or even better wants to kiss me under the mistletoe! I am an atheist, and I have no problem whatsoever participating in all things Christmas, short of going to church or any of the more religious rituals I don't believe in or participate with. Otherwise, what's the big or small deal either way? Regardless where we're from or what we believe?

That’s probably because you come from a nominally Christian background, and, from the sound of things, continue to celebrate the non-theological aspects of the Holiday (much like I do for Chanukah as a Jewish atheist).

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I certainly have never told anyone I'm an atheist when wished a merry Christmas in any case. Doesn't even occur to me.

And that’s Gentile privilege in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by LearnMe

I suppose you know more about what Jewish people look like, but I'm not that good at making those distinctions. Most of the Jewish people I know are mostly impossible to distinguish from everyday white people far as I'm concerned. They certainly have that "leg up" when it comes to racism as compared to black people for example, though I do know some people look decidedly Jewish. I don't think they have the same sort of problem either, but I don't know too much about what fuels anti-semitism either.

The white privilege that I (and even many stereotypically Jewish looking Jews) enjoy is absolutely more consequential than the disadvantages we have by virtue of Gentile privilege. I would never even begin to claim otherwise. But anti-Semitism continues to be an issue in the United States, and while I am fortunate in having mostly sporadic run-ins with anti-Semitism—aided no doubt by the fact that I have spent almost my entire life in cosmopolitan areas with medium to very large Jewish communities—I’ve encountered it enough times to know what it looks like and how it has affected me personally.

I mention the “Jewish” look (which, certainly, is not shared by all Jews, and is most often able to be spotted by other Jews, people familiar with Jewish culture, and people who live in or adjacent to distinctly Jewish areas), because some of the anti-Semitism I have encountered is nasty comments about Jewish people that others have made because they had no clue I was a Member of the Tribe.

Once, when we were visiting my grandmother in an extremely Jewish part of Southeast Florida, my mother and brother were in line at a local pharmacy. Someone (who quite likely was Jewish) cut in from of them in line and made an obnoxious remark when my mother demurred at her doing so. When my mom (whom I mostly resemble) reached the cashier, the cashier said, “I’m so sorry sweetie, don’t you worry about those nasty Jews.” When my mother pointed out, in a admirably restrained way that she was Jewish and didn’t appreciate the cashier’s remark, the cashier turned white as a sheet and bagged my mother’s purchases in silence. When my dad found out, he hit the roof and wanted to report the cashier to the store manager, but my mother (who, unfortunately, dealt with far more than her fair share of anti-Semitism as a child), just wanted to forget about it and move on.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

Yes, and it seems our opinions on the subject are not that divergent after all. Focusing on a couple other outstanding points:

While I don’t think you realize this (and, to be clear, I am not personally offended because we’ve had enough discussions for me to better understand your intentions), that’s a very demeaning statement to make and exemplifies the concept of Gentile privilege.

I don’t agree with every item on this list (and some items, while certainly true of Jews, are also true of some other peoples). However, I think that most of the examples of Gentile privilege hit the mark, and one of them is as follows:

The Christmas season is a major time of the year which reminds Jews in diaspora nations that we are different, from everyone else, and many non-Jews who are often not hateful people will look at you funny, and even express pity, if and when you tell them you don’t celebrate Christmas.

It’s a weird sort of winter holiday season paternalism. Part of the reason I no longer gently (but politely!) correct most people, unless they “wish” me a Merry Christmas in a defiantly obnoxious way (and those people absolutely exist, namely the “War on Christmas” types) is that you’re often seen as some type of party pooper or buzzkill if you simply point out your holiday traditions differ from the norm.

It’s hardly the worst thing in the world to happen to a Jew because they’re Jewish, but it gets very grating and tiresome and definitely fits in the realm of micro-aggressions.

That’s probably because you come from a nominally Christian background, and, from the sound of things, continue to celebrate the non-theological aspects of the Holiday (much like I do for Chanukah as a Jewish atheist).

And that’s Gentile privilege in a nutshell.

The white privilege that I (and even many stereotypically Jewish looking Jews) enjoy is absolutely more consequential than the disadvantages we have by virtue of Gentile privilege. I would never even begin to claim otherwise. But anti-Semitism continues to be an issue in the United States, and while I am fortunate in having mostly sporadic run-ins with anti-Semitism—aided no doubt by the fact that I have spent almost my entire life in cosmopolitan areas with medium to very large Jewish communities—I’ve encountered it enough times to know what it looks like and how it has affected me personally.

I mention the “Jewish” look (which, certainly, is not shared by all Jews, and is most often able to be spotted by other Jews, people familiar with Jewish culture, and people who live in or adjacent to distinctly Jewish areas), because some of the anti-Semitism I have encountered is nasty comments about Jewish people that others have made because they had no clue I was a Member of the Tribe.

Once, when we were visiting my grandmother in an extremely Jewish part of Southeast Florida, my mother and brother were in line at a local pharmacy. Someone (who quite likely was Jewish) cut in from of them in line and made an obnoxious remark when my mother demurred at her doing so. When my mom (whom I mostly resemble) reached the cashier, the cashier said, “I’m so sorry sweetie, don’t you worry about those nasty Jews.” When my mother pointed out, in a admirably restrained way that she was Jewish and didn’t appreciate the cashier’s remark, the cashier turned white as a sheet and bagged my mother’s purchases in silence. When my dad found out, he hit the roof and wanted to report the cashier to the store manager, but my mother (who, unfortunately, dealt with far more than her fair share of anti-Semitism as a child), just wanted to forget about it and move on.

Hello again EA and thanks again for the thoughtful responses. Also for giving me the benefit of the doubt if and when you feel appropriate. I appreciate that consideration over some of the more commonly nasty default reactions and assumptions that this kind of exchange can all too often inspire in others not so inclined.

About those other points on which perhaps we still diverge a bit...

There is most definitely a gap between what you think I don't realize, and what I might instead suggest is a matter of differing perspectives. Some warranted. Some not. I sure hope you are not personally offended by anything I explain, because that certainly is never my intent when discussing anything about the following with anyone. Please do keep this in mind. That said, if you feel it is appropriate to improve my insights, sensitivity or opinions in any way, I gladly invite your ongoing assistance along those lines.

I PRIDE myself in always applying my best efforts to be as informed, fair, balanced and reasonable when it comes to formulating and sharing my opinions about any topics such as these.

In much the same way, perhaps, I am not personally offended by this you introduce about Gentile privilege, but perhaps you are not aware that suggesting that me or others are not generally aware of all that can be considered insulting. I take some exception with much about that list you provided to me, and of course maybe that's the "slippery slope" this sort of discussion will inevitably lead us to, and perhaps best we avoid altogether. Other than in the way of the more general discussion we've been having so far. You should give me more credit in terms of that sort of awareness I think, but I suppose that's nothing you should necessarily assume. I certainly did not mean to demean anything about the realities of Jewish history either way. That is just one way to view my opinions and comments. Certainly not even close to correct or fair far as I'm concerned. A perspective that tends to stifle fair and honest exchange of opinion about such things. I can't walk that walk on egg shells just because anyone might be focused on a history (or whatever) that causes them to think my comments are similarly related or insulting. There are other perspectives that are also fair and worthy to consider. Without involving insult to anyone.

What might be helpful along these lines is to instead consider "man's inhumanity to man" with respect to blacks, slavery and racism. As an alternative more neutral example we can consider. An example among many others of course. I suppose any black person could suggest you and I enjoy "white privilege" in the same way, and of course I understand I can't know what it is to live in the skin of a black person. This, however, doesn't mean I am in any way blind to their history, their plight, their challenges, like you seem to be suggesting about me and Jewish people. Or that I can't even promote the better way of sharing our respective space on this planet together, in peace. Even with these differing histories and examples of "man's inhumanity to man," I feel we should not let those facts and differences keep all of us from considering the issues of the day in light of the circumstances of the day. While keeping all that nasty history in mind, we should also be able to talk about right or wrong, prejudice or acceptance, progress or regression without letting all that nasty history overwhelm a healthy discussion and look forward for all concerned. If I want to be critical of a black politician or organization or country, for example, I want my criticisms to be judged on their merit without the knee-jerk reaction that I can't know what it is to be a black person. Fair?

As you know, I am an atheist, and Christmas has many ways of reminding me that I'm not a Christian. That I'm in the minority as an atheist, and I know very well what a whole lot of people think about atheists. There is a fair amount of history about how atheists have been persecuted over time as well. Not to compare to the story of Jews, but again for me it tends to be a matter of which direction we're focused upon. Backward or forward. Also if you or me or anyone feels directly threatened or prejudiced upon today. That's one thing, and to be dealt with as appropriate on the spot. Otherwise, at least for me, I'm not inclined to bring the baggage of history into a simple merry Christmas. I don't care who you are. To that end, I've enjoyed many a Christmas and Christmas celebration with Jewish people, and none of us seemed to have any issue doing so together whatsoever. That's as I prefer in any case. We can choose what we want to be reminded about at such times. True of everyone. I really don't think my feelings have anything to do with my "nominally Christian background," but this too I have carefully considered thanks to your input. Still, I don't think so.

What advice might you give me, I wonder, about how I always wish everyone in this forum a merry Christmas even though I am an atheist and I know many participants are Jewish.

Back to the more general discussion, you also got me to thinking about your comments related to Fagan and Dylan being prideful Jews, or proud of being Jewish, and all about that. I got to thinking that for all my music loving years, I very rarely knew anything about these musicians (all musicians) other than perhaps most basically if they were American or British. Typically it was always simply that distinction, because so many of the biggest stars or bands were either from America or England. Other than this, I just didn't think much about their background and didn't really care beyond the pleasure of enjoying their music (or not). In the case of Dylan, I only knew because I knew he changed his name early on from Robert Zimmerman to Bob Dylan. Otherwise, it was mostly just that Steely Dan and Bob Dylan were Americans. End of story for me.

Perhaps also interesting to note along those lines, though I have English heritage, I've never felt any sort of pride that any of my favorite singer song writers or bands are from England. Or from Italy for that matter. My mother's maiden name is Sinatra, but for whatever reasons perhaps also interesting to consider, I've never felt any sort of pride about those associations due to common heritage.

As for looking Jewish, I've wondered to what extent you have personally experienced anti-Semitism. I'm sorry if you have had to face nasty comments, and of course I know as a white American male, I've not experienced much if any of that, but I am always sympathetic about people who have to face those sorts of prejudices even if I can't be empathetic. I can well appreciate your sad story about your family at the pharmacy. I think it's very hard for all of us who are not inclined in those nasty ways to accept those who are, and/or not to let them get in the way of living our lives to the fullest. Despite the all too many nitwits out there. Good for your mother who wanted to forget about it and move on. "Easier said than done," I know, but better than the alternative I think.

Don't forget to root for Argentina this Sunday!

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

since this thread resides in the Religion and Spirituality section of the forum, then to keep it actually related to Religion and Spirituality, then readers may want to share and list the 3-5 books they are currently reading (or have read within the last say 6 months or so) which are related specifically to Religion and Spirituality.

i always have about 12 books at a time which are currently in progress (books at home, books in the car, books at my desk at work for reading at lunch and on break, books in my bag for waiting in line or at appointments). so here are some books which I am currently reading:

• Dew Drops on a Lotus Leaf, Poems of Zen Master Ryokan

• Turning Confusion into Clarity, Guide to Foundation Practices of Tibetan Buddhism, by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

• Althar Intense, Living the Paradox, the ninth Althar book by Joachim Wolfram (my third read through these books, and yes i will read them again.)

• Rebbe Nachman, The Power of Psalms, Book 2, Insights drawn from Breslov Teachings to enhance saying of Tehillim, translated and annotated by Dovid Sears

• Step by Step Tai Chi, Natural Way to Strength and Health, by Master Lam Kam Chuen, guide for use in daily qi gong practice

it would be wonderful to share and see the titles and interests of readers here on CD, the 3-5 books you are currently reading related to Religion and Spirituality.

Great idea to list what we are currently reading.
I happened to be in the public library in Alabama and they had a lovey used bookstore. I found this book, Studying Religion by Russel McCutcheon who is the Chair of the dept of Religious Studies at UA. It is a wonderful small book on how to approach studying Religion. It has a glossary of terms used in Religious Studies. A section on the scholars whose views are discussed in the book, and a summary of their particular approach to studying religion and their arguments. I learnt so much from this book, a variety of perspectives on what religion is, and is not.
I plan to move on to a more advanced book, Critical Terms for Religious Studies by Mark C. Taylor.
I have also been studying a book with commentary by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, who passed way 2 years ago. This is a book on the 108 selected verses from a larger work called Vivekachudamani consisting of 581 verses. The work is attributed to Sankara who lived between 700 and 800 CE. The work deals with moksha or liberation, freedom from fear and uncertainty.
I also got interested in Chris Hedges after listening to his podcasts on his opinion on the war in Ukraine and also Biden. He has interviewed Roger Waters of Pink Floyd. I am reading an old book of his, I Don’t Believe in Atheists, which i dont plan on discussing in these forums. But he is worth listening to for his current political views which also i dont plan on discussing in CD.