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Old 02-26-2023, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA, now.
21,020 posts, read 19,367,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Biggest coincidence of my life...and tied to religion:

I'm from Palmyra, NY -- where Joseph Smith founded Mormonism. His farm was just over the 'back hill' from my house...maybe 3/4 miles away, and Hill Cumorah (where he supposedly received the Golden Plates from the angel Moroni) was just down the road from my house. The first formal Mormon Church in the village was directly across the road from my childhood home.
Same here. Passed it everyday. ''Whitmer Farm: Church Organization Site

Church of Jesus Christhttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org › learn › new-york

Peter Whitmer Farm, located near XXXX, New York, is the place where The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints was organized in 1830.''
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Old 02-26-2023, 10:05 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
So I watched the SNL Chapelle standup clip from start to finish. I wasn’t offended or outraged, and I didn’t find it anti-Semitic. But it was tone-deaf on the topic of anti-Semitism to the extent that Chapelle was saying, “Yeah, I don’t condone what Kanye and Kyrie are doing, but is it really a big deal?” And that rubbed me the wrong way.

Chapelle could have taken a firmer stand without compromising his comic timing or delivery, but perhaps he didn’t because he really doesn’t think it’s a big deal. I don’t consider that anti-Semitism per se, but I do find that attitude disappointing. And it is concerning to the extent that Kanye and Kyrie do have power and influence, and a lot of people take what they say seriously and view them as role models to be emulated.

Now, Chapelle isn’t responsible for their misdeeds, and it’s not fair to hold Chapelle accountable as if he said those awful things, which he didn’t. The parodic I’m not Jewish but I’ll try to subvert anti-Semitic tropes for laughs*** is circa. 2003 passé though and, I think, has gone out of favor for good reason.

But in that regard, I think Chapelle is a product of his peak comedic era. Some comics can successfully toe the edgy line throughout their careers by carefully keeping their ears to the tracks in order to stay on the right side of that line. That’s a hard dance to nail down (George Carlin definitely nailed it), and many talented comics can’t do it successfully forever. I’m not certain Lenny Bruce could have accomplished that in perpetuity, genius though he was.

***And the same is true when any comic tries approaching controversial topics involving different groups as an outsider; it’s not just about Jews and anti-Semitism.
Unfortunately, I am without more time now, and I've only had a chance to scan through the comments posted since I last signed off from this thread. I'm glad to read the beginning of yours, and I'm looking forward to reading all of your comment more carefully (along with the others) when I get another chance maybe tomorrow.

As it's time for me to get on with preparing our BSB. Best of Sundays to you and yours!

Cheers!
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Old 02-26-2023, 10:16 AM
 
15,950 posts, read 7,012,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
public figures with a large following and a public voice on stage, yes can and do incite hate regardless of their occupation.
they only incite hate in those who are already predisposed to hate immigrants, people of color, the young the old, women… there is no end to hatered.
Chapelle’s whole performance was not about jews. it was about Kanye most of all and he was laughing at him but also drew attention to some complex things. It was about power, who has the power, and how does it manifest. he talked about black people and how they are viewed. it is couched in comedy but it was also an intelligent delivery. it is performance. there was no hate expressed.
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Old 02-26-2023, 10:46 AM
 
22,151 posts, read 19,203,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
they only incite hate in those who are already predisposed to hate immigrants, people of color, the young the old, women… there is no end to hatered. Chapelle’s whole performance was not about jews. it was about Kanye most of all and he was laughing at him but also drew attention to some complex things. It was about power, who has the power, and how does it manifest. he talked about black people and how they are viewed. it is couched in comedy but it was also an intelligent delivery. it is performance. there was no hate expressed.
if someone makes jokes about rape, pedophilia, assault of women with comments such as "well, what did she do" and "hey, rapists do good too" and constantly refers to women as "bit*hes" that is not intelligent, it is misogyny.

if someone indicates for instance Holocaust denial is no big deal and it is exaggerated as a plot for Jews to gain power, that is no different than saying slavery of blacks is no big deal and is exaggerated in a bid for blacks to gain power.

i don't find any of that intelligent.
lowbrow performance to make money? sure.
but for someone who supposedly left an earlier contract out of a desire to be "socially responsible"
that's gone out the window.


"Conversely, what Chappelle, and many other comedians are doing does not take any effort or critical thought. Ignorantly reducing trans women to a conversation about genitals is not only abhorrent and outdated. It’s literally embarrassing."

"devoted much of their recent output to attacking transgender people with the sort of crass, surface-level observations you’d expect to hear from a conservative uncle at your dinner table. By vocally doubling down on their transphobic stances, their prejudice could end up becoming their legacy." "And now we are being forced to watch them devolve into loud, stubborn, out-of-touch, bigoted old men."

from an article that i find does express an intelligent and thoughtful view on
Dave Chappelle and Ricky Gervais Are the Real Jokes

https://www.them.us/story/dave-chapp...comedy-netflix

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-26-2023 at 12:02 PM..
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Old 02-26-2023, 12:19 PM
 
15,950 posts, read 7,012,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if someone makes jokes about rape, pedophilia, assault of women with comments such as "well, what did she do" and "hey, rapists do good too" and constantly refers to women as "bit*hes" that is not intelligent, it is misogyny.

if someone indicates for instance Holocaust denial is no big deal and it is exaggerated as a plot for Jews to gain power, that is no different than saying slavery of blacks is no big deal and is exaggerated in a bid for blacks to gain power.

i don't find any of that intelligent.
lowbrow performance to make money? sure.
but for someone who supposedly left an earlier contract out of a desire to be "socially responsible"
that's gone out the window.


"Conversely, what Chappelle, and many other comedians are doing does not take any effort or critical thought. Ignorantly reducing trans women to a conversation about genitals is not only abhorrent and outdated. It’s literally embarrassing."

"devoted much of their recent output to attacking transgender people with the sort of crass, surface-level observations you’d expect to hear from a conservative uncle at your dinner table. By vocally doubling down on their transphobic stances, their prejudice could end up becoming their legacy." "And now we are being forced to watch them devolve into loud, stubborn, out-of-touch, bigoted old men."

from an article that i find does express an intelligent and thoughtful view on
Dave Chappelle and Ricky Gervais Are the Real Jokes

https://www.them.us/story/dave-chapp...comedy-netflix

I agree comedy can overstep bounds, be disturbing, obscene, vulgar, hateful, racist and sexist, all that. Very much so. They can also be hilarious, funny, clever and intelligent. Both can happen in the same performance. Or the performance can completely fail.

I would rather live in a civil society that provides such space for free expression of different art forms and speech than censor any of it unless it clearly violates what is hate speech. I commend both Netflix and SNL for not blinking.

None of this is any match from what is provided daily as "news" in the cable news networks, one of which is now being sued for spreading false information endangering lives. I hope they go bankrupt which of course will not happen and the continue to spew hate and fake news. They all do it.
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Old 02-26-2023, 12:24 PM
 
22,151 posts, read 19,203,648 times
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it is not about censoring anything.
no one is saying censor anything.

and the point is not "the performance" the point is recognizing the adverse effects and influence which public figures have due to their voice and platform. and how they yes do have a real world effect in perpetuating, inciting, and giving others license to harm.

his current work strikes me as lowest common denominator stale bigotry. my observation is there are readers who share that bigotry and by sharing clips it gives them license to publicize and hide behind and snicker at and agree with that stale bigotry. from the distance of "oh its just a joke" "but its funny" "objections to this are unreasonable" "but he's popular and makes a lot of money"

here is another in my view thoughtful intelligent piece with depth, on the arc of his work over the decades, and how it is problematic currently
article Dave Chappelle's Big Lie,

"It is hard for me, as a woman in her 30s, to think about the reactions I saw adult Black men, and women, have to the Kelly tape back then and for many years after. To me, it seems that the bit and the positive reception to it spoke volumes about the inability of Chappelle, and most people, to have empathy for Black girls and women. We wouldn’t laugh—side by side with White folks— about any of the instances of Black men or boys being harmed by state violence. How could Black women be asked to laugh at rape jokes alongside, essentially, the same folks who’d be allowed to rape us with impunity? It’s the Black A** Lie."

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-26-2023 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 02-26-2023, 02:43 PM
 
15,950 posts, read 7,012,752 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is not about censoring anything.
no one is saying censor anything.

and the point is not "the performance" the point is recognizing the adverse effects and influence which public figures have due to their voice and platform. and how they yes do have a real world effect in perpetuating, inciting, and giving others license to harm.

his current work strikes me as lowest common denominator stale bigotry. my observation is there are readers who share that bigotry and by sharing clips it gives them license to publicize and hide behind and snicker at and agree with that stale bigotry. from the distance of "oh its just a joke" "but its funny" "objections to this are unreasonable" "but he's popular and makes a lot of money"

here is another in my view thoughtful intelligent piece with depth, on the arc of his work over the decades, and how it is problematic currently
article Dave Chappelle's Big Lie,

"It is hard for me, as a woman in her 30s, to think about the reactions I saw adult Black men, and women, have to the Kelly tape back then and for many years after. To me, it seems that the bit and the positive reception to it spoke volumes about the inability of Chappelle, and most people, to have empathy for Black girls and women. We wouldn’t laugh—side by side with White folks— about any of the instances of Black men or boys being harmed by state violence. How could Black women be asked to laugh at rape jokes alongside, essentially, the same folks who’d be allowed to rape us with impunity? It’s the Black A** Lie."
I am not sure what influence Kanye wielded. he lost half his net worth in half a day. Kyrie (sp?) lost his job. Inflating their influence to the influence wielded by other forces is a false claim.
You are right the posting of the video is mischief. I am surprised the thread is not closed.
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Old 02-26-2023, 03:07 PM
 
22,151 posts, read 19,203,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I am not sure what influence Kanye wielded. he lost half his net worth in half a day. Kyrie (sp?) lost his job. Inflating their influence to the influence wielded by other forces is a false claim.
You are right the posting of the video is mischief. I am surprised the thread is not closed.
if his business contracts got cancelled it is a result of and natural outcome of his own actions.
the only thing influencing his loss of business is the influence of his actions on business interests which chose to distance themself from him, due to his own behaviors.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-26-2023 at 03:27 PM..
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Old 02-26-2023, 03:49 PM
 
22,151 posts, read 19,203,648 times
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"other forces" ??? business interests who want to make money, and know that giving a platform to a public figure spewing hate and praising Adolf Hitler, is not good for business and is contrary to the values they put forth and what they feel their business stands for and they don't want tarnished??

a long list of businesses have either dropped him, or he has terminated his contract with them. Here are sample of statements why:

TJ Maxx: "At TJX we do not tolerate discrimination, harassment, or hate of any kind. We have instructed our buying teams not to purchase this merchandise for sale in any of our stores globally."

Peloton: "is no longer using West’s music in the soundtrack for its products." "I do not support hate speech whatsoever, baby. I don’t tolerate that s— at all"

Boston Celtics star forward Jaylen Brown: "there are times when my voice and my position can’t coexist in spaces that don’t correspond with my stance or my values. And, for that reason, I am terminating my association with Donda Sports [West's marketing agency]"

MRC film and television production: “We cannot support any content that amplifies his platform,” MRC executives said.

Talent agency WME: "Those who continue to do business with West are giving his misguided hate an audience. There should be no tolerance anywhere for West’s anti-Semitism.”

Aaron Donald of the NFL Los Angeles Rams: “The recent displays of hate and antisemitism are the exact opposite of how we choose to live our lives and raise our children...,” he and his wife, Erica, said in a statement. “As parents and members of society, we felt a responsibility to send a clear message that hateful words and actions have consequences and that we must do better as human beings.”

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-26-2023 at 03:58 PM..
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Old 02-27-2023, 08:43 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Do you find antisemitism funny? Do you find it funny to incite anti-trans rhetoric which leads to real-world harm?
View expressed in post above also seems to indicate that objections to the content are "unreasonable." and phrases like "telling it like it really is" suggests you agree with the rhetoric and buy into it and are, in a word, complicit.

" It’s dangerous rhetoric that’s been shown in study after study to directly impact the levels of anti-trans violence and societal prejudice that trans people already face daily." "There’s no getting around the reality that transphobic rhetoric like Chappelle’s absolutely contributes to real-life harm. But Chappelle seems to view that hurt, and even the immediate pain of his transphobic jokes, as a worthy trade-off."

"The Simon Wiesenthal Center also lashed Chappelle and NBC, which hosts SNL, for the monologue. “Dave Chappelle had the power to put anti-Semites in their place, and that’s how his SNL monologue began. By the end, he mainlined some of the worst core resurgent antisemitic tropes,” said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, the center’s director of global social action. “NBC Universal should never have allowed their platform to be used to push antisemitic hate.”'

article Outrage at Chappelle for amplifying transphobic views

and article Dave Chappelle’s antisemitic monologue sparks backlash

and article ADL chief blasts Dave Chappelle monologue as ‘normalizing’ antisemitism
No. I certainly don't find antisemitism funny. Did you not hear his opening statement? That makes it all okay?

A shot of more humor there. I think we can all use a bit more humor rather than forever trying not to...

Seems you Googled for everything critical about Chappelle, but none of the praise or defense. I have to wonder if you even knew who Chappelle was before I posted this monologue.

There's a name for that sort of thing and another thread with that name in the title that I started about what a problem that sort of thing can be. You display the results of that problem on an ongoing bases.
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