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Old 02-27-2023, 08:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Chappelle is not anti-semetic. He is a successful comedian and he provokes, which is what the best of comedy does. What he is talking about is very complex, uncomfortable, and it is hard to talk about, but it is also is important to talk about. Perhaps a more open discourse might help mitigate the real hateful acts against jews, which definitely is real and to be condemned. Comedy rarely incite hate.
Perhaps this is not the best forum to discuss this show, Learn Me. I am a big fan.
I have trouble with the notion any discussion like this is "taboo" in this forum just because some people have opposing or different perspective about the topic, and in a thread with a title like this one? Please. Nothing that hasn't been discussed before in this thread or forum in any case. Many times.

I am pleased you posted this comment not only because I agree and because Chappelle has "debunked" many a criticism and unfair claim over the course of his many years on stage, but because it's YOU posting this comment. In stark contrast to what Tzap posted. Is this a first?

Chappelle does a fantastic job of touching on "third rail" topics that should be better addressed rather than consider them "off limits," as Chappelle in this monologue does another good job of pointing out. I love that one line about how if it's a group of blacks it's a gang. If it's a group of Italians, it's a mob. If it's a group of Jewish people it's a coincidence not to be talked about. Ever.

Or something pretty close to that...

I've also got to add that I've enjoyed many a Jewish comedian poke fun of "Jewishness" for as long as I can remember. I love comedy, and many of the Jewish comedians are among my favorites. They all do it quite often and without apology. I just as recently watched a touching movie in which Billy Crystal does the same thing. When they do it, it's okay. When someone not Jewish does it, for all too many Jewish people it's antisemitism. WRONG.

Last edited by LearnMe; 02-27-2023 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:06 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,326 posts, read 12,997,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I've also got to add that I've enjoyed many a Jewish comedian poke fun of "Jewishness" for as long as I can remember. I love comedy, and many of the Jewish comedians are among my favorites. They all do it quite often and without apology. I just as recently watched a touching movie in which Billy Crystal does the same thing. When they do it, it's okay. When someone not Jewish does it, for all too many Jewish people it's antisemitism. WRONG.
It depends on the joke in question, as well as the time and place of said joke. I believe that as a general rule, poking fun at a given group is best reserved for members of that same group (and that applies to all groups). That is a fairly recent social norm, as broadly enforced (particularly in today’s cancel culture era) and often falls along generational lines accordingly.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
So I watched the SNL Chapelle standup clip from start to finish. I wasn’t offended or outraged, and I didn’t find it anti-Semitic. But it was tone-deaf on the topic of anti-Semitism to the extent that Chapelle was saying, “Yeah, I don’t condone what Kanye and Kyrie are doing, but is it really a big deal?” And that rubbed me the wrong way.

Chapelle could have taken a firmer stand without compromising his comic timing or delivery, but perhaps he didn’t because he really doesn’t think it’s a big deal. I don’t consider that anti-Semitism per se, but I do find that attitude disappointing. And it is concerning to the extent that Kanye and Kyrie do have power and influence, and a lot of people take what they say seriously and view them as role models to be emulated.

Now, Chapelle isn’t responsible for their misdeeds, and it’s not fair to hold Chapelle accountable as if he said those awful things, which he didn’t. The parodic I’m not Jewish but I’ll try to subvert anti-Semitic tropes for laughs*** is circa. 2003 passé though and, I think, has gone out of favor for good reason.

But in that regard, I think Chapelle is a product of his peak comedic era. Some comics can successfully toe the edgy line throughout their careers by carefully keeping their ears to the tracks in order to stay on the right side of that line. That’s a hard dance to nail down (George Carlin definitely nailed it), and many talented comics can’t do it successfully forever. I’m not certain Lenny Bruce could have accomplished that in perpetuity, genius though he was.

***And the same is true when any comic tries approaching controversial topics involving different groups as an outsider; it’s not just about Jews and anti-Semitism.
All well put, and what rubbed you the wrong way thought provoking...

Could be that Chappelle was not as inclined to be that critical of fellow black people in much the same way so man people are not able to be critical (or laugh at) their own kind. Again, human nature and the problem of confirmation bias all too common in my opinion, but probably not accurate when it comes to Chappelle, because he pokes fun of everyone. Including black people.

How big a deal is it?

To everyone generally speaking? I'm reminded of how Mel Gibson was "run out of Hollywood" for doing the same thing. Almost anyway. Wrong, but how big a deal? I remember thinking yet another of many, but to what extent is it a big deal? Donald Trump? Trump has been accused of racism, homophobia, xenophobia and antisemitism, and he becomes POTUS!

None of these wrongs make a right of course, and I always agree with criticism when justified, but to the extent these sorts of comments or jokes materially change anything? I don't think much really. It's the actions more than words that matter, and although we can all argue how words can incite wrong-doing, it's the wrong-doing that tends to get more of my attention and/or "rub me the wrong way."

I don't put Chappelle's monologue in these categories of anti-semitism or provoking any sort of wrong-doing in any case. Obviously he's out to provoke laughs, and I think he does so in a very interesting, thought-provoking and ultimately fair way. In part this is why he has the following he does.

Thanks for getting back to me about this. I was immediately curious to know what you might think while watching Chappelle's monologue since we have discussed many of these particulars in this forum before. Knowing you have offered a reasoned well-balanced perspective in past discussions, I appreciate being able to get your opinion about this too. Again not disappointed I did. Much appreciated.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:17 AM
 
15,950 posts, read 7,012,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I have trouble with the notion any discussion like this is "taboo" in this forum just because some people have opposing or different perspective about the topic, and in a thread with a title like this one? Please. Nothing that hasn't been discussed before in this thread or forum in any case.

I am pleased you posted this comment not only because I agree and because Chappelle has "debunked" many a criticism and unfair claim over the course of his many years on stage, but because it's YOU posting this comment. In stark contrast to what Tzap posted. Is this a first?

Chappelle does a fantastic job of touching on "third rail" topics that should be better addressed rather than consider them "off limits," as Chappelle in this monologue does another good job of pointing out. I love that one line about how if it's a group of blacks it's a gang. If it's a group of Italians, it's a mob. If it's a group of Jewish people it's a coincidence not to be talked about. Ever.

Or something pretty close to that...

I've also got to add that I've enjoyed many a Jewish comedian poke fun of "Jewishness" for as long as I can remember. I love comedy, and many of the Jewish comedians are among my favorites. They all do it quite often and without apology. I just as recently watched a touching movie in which Billy Crystal does the same thing. When they do it, it's okay. When someone not Jewish does it, for all too many Jewish people it's antisemitism. WRONG.
I liked that as well.
I still believe this is more appropriate for a different forum - debate, psych, media, current events, philosophy. It just does not not sit well here because the focus, regardless of thread, is discussion of religion and spirituality. I dont believe in discrediting any religion and prefer to focus on spirituality, which has no religion attached to it.

I have great respect for Tzaph for her posts.
Good Comedy, which is art, and like all good art, makes a statement and is speaking a truth, and is meant to disturb. People get stabbed in the eye for making it. Rushdie is still writing and speaking. Art cannot be silenced. Civil society dies when that happens.
The crux of the matter of what Chapelle’s performance is about, is hard to describe. It is many things, and that is why it is so complex. He has treaded very carefully and well in my opinion.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:17 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
In some good news, many social media religious “groups” have been banned in recent times.
I recall one Facebook page, named Catholic Church Worldwide Forum - Debate (was actually all in caps) and other hate sites have now been taken down.
There was no constructive debate on sites like this, just hate and trolling with Bible passages etc.
Catholics were seen as the modern day Pharisees.
It even mixed the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church as one entity, accusing Catholics of feeding the “Real Christians” to the lions etc.
Thank God social media has finally removed hate groups like this now, and only in recent times.
This new age phenomena having to do with the influence of social media is another very interesting topic, and that "fine line" between free speech and what should be banned is also heavily debated. Not only the effort to prevent hate of others but hate of ourselves! These latest findings with regard to how many young women are being negatively affected by social media is alarming. Affecting their self-image, to the point of suicide?

Sometimes I am truly glad many of these problems or issues were not so prevalent when we were raising our own, but then I think about their children, and ugh. Just ugh, but somehow the next generation finds a way through what the prior generation always thinks is "the end of days." It's not...
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaiSea View Post
Yes, just like Roger Waters.

"The German city of Frankfurt has canceled a show by former Pink Floyd frontman Roger Waters due to his antisemitism."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...sm/ar-AA17UE7q
Interesting to note how quickly a monologue by Chappelle should one way or another get lumped into these examples of antisemitism. I suppose that too is inevitable but fair? Again, just depends on who you ask, but ask me and I say no. This too bugs me more than just a little, because it happens a little too often...
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:22 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,326 posts, read 12,997,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
All well put, and what rubbed you the wrong way thought-provoking...

Could be that Chappelle was not as inclined to be that critical of fellow black people in much the same way so man people are not able to be critical (or laugh at) their own kind. Again, human nature and the problem of confirmation bias all too common in my opinion, but probably not accurate when it comes to Chappelle, because he pokes fun of everyone. Including black people.
Chapelle attained much of his fame through his eponymous show, which often poked fun at Black people. And as a Black man, he has the license to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
How big a deal is it?

To everyone generally speaking? I'm reminded of how Mel Gibson was "run out of Hollywood" for doing the same thing. Almost anyway. Wrong, but how big a deal?
I assume you mean doing the same thing as Kyrie and Kanye. And yes, it was a huge deal when that alcoholic POS started reciting quotes straight out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, much in the manner of his even more deranged father, because that Jew police officer had “the nerve” to pull over Mel Gibson the drunkard because he was driving quite erratically under the influence.

Mel Gibson should have been run out of Hollywood, and the fact that he wasn’t should show you that the Jews control Hollywood trope doesn’t actually prove true, even though Hollywood’s movers and shakers are disproportionately from Jewish backgrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I remember thinking yet another of many, but to what extent is it a big deal? Donald Trump? Trump has been accused of racism, homophobia, xenophobia and antisemitism, and he becomes POTUS!
That’s also a big deal, although Trump is nowhere near the Kyrie/Kanye/Gibson level of anti-Semitism. He’s more the type who plays into passé tropes about Jews being “good with money,” which he probably thinks is a compliment. That’s definitely problematic, especially for the leader of the free world, but it’s more a function of (willful) ignorance than hate. Trump has run in a largely Jewish crowd for most of his life, dating back to his primary and secondary school days. I don’t think he hates us. He’s had no shortage of Jewish friends and allies through the years, including my grandfather for 15 minutes in the 1980s (another story for another time). I do think he would sell us down the river in a second if he thought it would allow him to regain or maintain his previous level of power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
None of these wrongs make a right of course, and I always agree with criticism when justified, but to the extent these sorts of comments or jokes materially change anything? I don't think much really. It's the actions more than words that matter, and although we can all argue how words can incite wrong-doing, it's the wrong-doing that tends to get more of my attention and/or "rub me the wrong way."
And that’s not atypical for you to say as a straight white man of non-Jewish background. If you belonged to one or more groups that fall along the marginalized scale, you’d likely feel differently.

That’s something very important to remember. I certainly benefit from white privilege as a person of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, but I don’t benefit from “Jewish privilege” because there is no such thing unless you live in Israel or parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Golan Heights. No doubt, my white privilege is leaps and bounds more consequential than Chapelle’s Gentile privilege. But the correlation between Jewishness and whiteness does not imply the existence of a Jewish privilege outside those limited geographic areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I don't put Chappelle's monologue in these categories of anti-semitism or provoking any sort of wrong-doing in any case. Obviously he's out to provoke laughs, and I think he does so in a very interesting, thought-provoking and ultimately fair way. In part this is why he has the following he does.
Right. Chapelle has gotten attention as if he parroted or endorsed Kyrie and Kanye’s rants and raves, and that’s not at all what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Thanks for getting back to me about this. I was immediately curious to know what you might think while watching Chappelle's monologue since we have discussed many of these particulars in this forum before. Knowing you have offered a reasoned well-balanced perspective in past discussions, I appreciate being able to get your opinion about this too. Again not disappointed I did. Much appreciated.
You’re welcome. I always enjoy our discourse.

Last edited by ElijahAstin; 02-27-2023 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I agree comedy can overstep bounds, be disturbing, obscene, vulgar, hateful, racist and sexist, all that. Very much so. They can also be hilarious, funny, clever and intelligent. Both can happen in the same performance. Or the performance can completely fail.

I would rather live in a civil society that provides such space for free expression of different art forms and speech than censor any of it unless it clearly violates what is hate speech. I commend both Netflix and SNL for not blinking.

None of this is any match from what is provided daily as "news" in the cable news networks, one of which is now being sued for spreading false information endangering lives. I hope they go bankrupt which of course will not happen and the continue to spew hate and fake news. They all do it.
If anyone wants to see a stand-up comedian who is "squeaky clean," listen to Brian Regan. He's hilarious and doesn't even use swear words. I took my wife, daughter and son to see him live over one Christmas holiday years ago, and we all had tears running down our faces from laughing so hard and so much! None of us will ever forget that show.

That said, I can laugh at the vulgar and more "disturbing" stuff too, because I don't live in a vanilla world, and I've probably got a "thicker skin" than average. I'm also known to infuse humor into serious discussions that for the most part is always somewhat appreciated as well. In part to keep people from going off the emotional rails when really it's just not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I am not sure what influence Kanye wielded. he lost half his net worth in half a day. Kyrie (sp?) lost his job. Inflating their influence to the influence wielded by other forces is a false claim.
You are right the posting of the video is mischief. I am surprised the thread is not closed.
"Mischief?"

And you were doing so well there for awhile. Please...

It's funny and it had much to do with topics discussed in this thread/forum before. The two of you are promoting "censorship" of this thread and/or topic that is really not appropriate. I sure hope it doesn't work and that you will stop this sort of nonsense!
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:33 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
It depends on the joke in question, as well as the time and place of said joke. I believe that as a general rule, poking fun at a given group is best reserved for members of that same group (and that applies to all groups). That is a fairly recent social norm, as broadly enforced (particularly in today’s cancel culture era) and often falls along generational lines accordingly.
Agreed. Of course...

"If we can't laugh at ourselves?" But we can laugh at what's funny about others too.

Bottom line. Humor is another one of those very subjective influences we're all going to consider in all our different ways. I think we can do better distinguishing what is hate-speech, bigotry and antisemitism generally speaking however.

"Balance is key."
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