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Old 02-27-2023, 09:47 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Agreed. Of course...

"If we can't laugh at ourselves?" But we can laugh at what's funny about others too.

Bottom line. Humor is another one of those very subjective influences we're all going to consider in all our different ways. I think we can do better distinguishing what is hate-speech, bigotry and antisemitism generally speaking however.

"Balance is key."
For sure.

I’ve thought a lot about anti-Semitism over the years—probably a lot more than most of my Jewish friends who grew up in the same (or broadly similar) areas with distinctive or at least prominent Jewish populations. And that’s probably because I don’t “look” Jewish (as I know I’ve mentioned before), meaning that people either think they can say nasty things about Jews because I’m not one of them, or they simply forget that I’m a MOT.

So suffice to say, I’m good at discerning between what is and is not anti-Semitism. I was quite confused when Whoopi Goldberg faced all that controversy when she said the Holocaust wasn’t about race. Obviously, she was wrong, and she can and should be educated on the subject. But not knowing something shouldn’t be a crime. It’s not like she went on to say, “And therefore the Holocaust isn’t a big deal and those whiny Jews should quit whining already.” She clearly believed that the Holocaust was among modern history’s greatest human tragedies. And yet, people pounced on her as if she attempted to minimize its significance.

I would be curious to hear more about Tzaphkiel’s attitudes on anti-Semitism. My family background and connection to Judaism is very garden-variety American. Hers is anything but, which may shape her views accordingly. And to be clear, Tzaphkiel: I say that in earnest and without even a trace amount of ridicule.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
Chapelle attained much of his fame through his eponymous show, which often poked fun at Black people. And as a Black man, he has the license to do that.

I assume you mean doing the same thing as Kyrie and Kanye. And yes, it was a huge deal when that alcoholic POS started reciting quotes straight out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, much in the manner of his even more deranged father, because that Jew police officer had “the nerve” to pull over Mel Gibson the drunkard because he was driving quite erratically under the influence.

Mel Gibson should have been run out of Hollywood, and the fact that he wasn’t should show you that the Jews control Hollywood trope doesn’t actually prove true, even though Hollywood’s movers and shakers are disproportionately from Jewish backgrounds.

That’s also a big deal, although Trump is nowhere near the Kyrie/Kanye/Gibson level of anti-Semitism. He’s more the type who plays into passé tropes about Jews being “good with money,” which he probably thinks is a compliment. That’s definitely problematic, especially for the leader of the free world, but it’s more a function of (willful) ignorance than hate. Trump has run in a largely Jewish crowd for most of his life, dating back to his primary and secondary school days. I don’t think he hates us. He’s had no shortage of Jewish friends and allies through the years, including my grandfather for 15 minutes in the 1980s (another story for another time). I do think he would sell us down the river in a second if he thought it would allow him to regain or maintain his previous level of power.

And that’s not atypical for you to say as a straight white man of non-Jewish background. If you belonged to one or more groups that fall along the marginalized scale, you’d likely feel differently.

That’s something very important to remember. I certainly benefit from white privilege as a person of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, but I don’t benefit from “Jewish privilege” because there is no such thing unless you live in Israel or parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Golan Heights. No doubt, my white privilege is leaps and bounds more consequential than Chapelle’s Gentile privilege. But the correlation between Jewishness and whiteness does not imply the existence of a Jewish privilege outside those limited geographic areas.

Right. Chapelle has gotten attention as if he parroted or endorsed Kyrie and Kanye’s rants and raves, and that’s not at all what happened.

You’re welcome. I always enjoy our discourse.
I tend to agree with you as usual, but I find some of what you write rather curious as well...

"that he wasn’t should show you that the Jews control Hollywood trope doesn’t actually prove true, even though Hollywood’s movers and shakers are disproportionately from Jewish backgrounds.

First, there is what spawned Gibson's tirade that might be part of the story worth considering, because when poked, people will often say and do things they regret. I agree Gibson is a POS for doing what he did. Also wrong, but then you seem to be justifying that very trope. True or not? Chappelle also makes clear it's more true than not. "Control" can mean many things and just because it's not complete control doesn't mean the influence is not strong or unbalanced. Right?

Then too you speculate as to what I would think or say if I "belonged to one or more groups that fall along the marginalized scale." Have you forgotten? My mother was born in Sicily. Remember that joke Chappelle included in this very monologue? Again something we discussed before and why I thought of you when I heard that joke as well. My mother speaks with a funny accent. My parents are immigrants...

Besides all that, I've never been one to think we've got to be a part of a group or that we need share the same experience to be sympathetic or empathetic. I'm part of more than a few threads (started some too) that emphasizes this point as well. We should all be as sensitive to all the various "hot buttons" that are out there, but at the same time to always need "walk on egg shells" because of those hot buttons? I don't agree with that either. We need to walk the fine line, and about this too we've little choice but to judge where it is as best we can all do as individuals.

Again, "balance is key," and before this thread does fall prey to those thinking this discussion is somehow mischief, perhaps best to get back to the topic of the thread.

Funny that too, don't you think?

Okay. I'm not Chappelle, but trying for a little humor through it all tends to help as well. IMO.
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Old 02-27-2023, 09:58 AM
 
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Wasn't that a great Super Bowl?

And what of that criticism about the half-time show? From religious people, to appease those always wanting to remind this is the R&S forum...
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:02 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I tend to agree with you as usual, but I find some of what you write rather curious as well...

"that he wasn’t should show you that the Jews control Hollywood trope doesn’t actually prove true, even though Hollywood’s movers and shakers are disproportionately from Jewish backgrounds.

First, there is what spawned Gibson's tirade that might be part of the story worth considering, because when poked, people will often say and do things they regret. I agree Gibson is a POS for doing what he did. Also wrong, but then you seem to be justifying that very trope. True or not? Chappelle also makes clear it's more true than not. "Control" can mean many things and just because it's not complete control doesn't mean the influence is not strong or unbalanced. Right?
I’m not justifying any sort of trope. Mel Gibson should have and probably would have been cancelled if he had shown his true colors during the cancel culture era. But it should be telling that if Mel Gibson’s outburst, which was so blatantly hateful and anti-Semitic, didn’t make him a permanent outcast in Hollywood, then “the Jews” don’t have quite the stranglehold as many people think. Yes, there are lots of Jews in Hollywood. How about that awful film The Passion of the Christ? The Jews certainly didn’t stop that film from being released to (unfortunately) wide popular acclaim. Certainly, Jews have a lot of influence in Hollywood circles. That does not make “the Jews” the arbiters of all things Hollywood and certainly does not mean Jewish overrepresentation in Hollywood is the result of a conspiracy or cabal.

I don’t think Chapelle makes anything clear. Part of the reason left-leaning journalists may have been ready to pounce on Chapelle is because of (what I understand to be) the more explicit and passé jokes he recently made about trans people. I say “what I understand to be” because I haven’t paid close attention to that controversy and reserve judgment accordingly. But he has not come even remotely close to being cancelled as a result of his SNL standup routine—nor do I think he should be cancelled because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Then too you speculate as to what I would think or say if I "belonged to one or more groups that fall along the marginalized scale." Have you forgotten? My mother was born in Sicily. Remember that joke Chappelle included in this very monologue? My mother speaks with a funny accent. My parents are immigrants...
I remember full well. Certainly, Italian-Americans have faced discrimination. American Jews did (and still do) face it far more frequently—sometimes (though certainly less often than average) from Italian-Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Besides all that, I've never been one to think we've got to be a part of a group or that we need share the same experience to be sympathetic or empathetic, and I'm part of more than a few threads that emphasizes that point as well. We should all be as sensitive to all the various "hot buttons" that are out there, but at the same time to always need to "walk on egg shelves" about those hot buttons. I don't agree with that either.
I don’t think that either. And I think part of being sympathetic and empathetic entails being mindful of what you should and should not comment on, as an outsider, when it comes to different groups.

Last edited by ElijahAstin; 02-27-2023 at 10:14 AM..
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:20 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
I’m not justifying any sort of trope. Mel Gibson should have and probably would have been cancelled if he had shown his true colors during the cancel culture era. But it should be telling that if Mel Gibson’s outburst, which was so blatantly hateful and anti-Semitic, didn’t make him a permanent outcast in Hollywood, then “the Jews” don’t have quite the stranglehold as many people think. Yes, there are lots of Jews in Hollywood. Certainly, that means Jews have a lot of influence in Hollywood circles. That does not make “the Jews” the arbiters of all things Hollywood and certainly does not mean Jewish overrepresentation in Hollywood is the result of a conspiracy or cabal.

I don’t think Chapelle makes anything clear. Part of the reason left-leaning journalists may have been ready to pounce on Chapelle is because of (what I understand to be) the more explicit and passé jokes he recently made about trans people. I say “what I understand to be” because I haven’t paid close attention to that controversy and reserve judgment accordingly. But he has not come even remotely close to being cancelled as a result of his SNL standup routine—nor do I think he should be cancelled because of it.


I remember full well. Certainly, Italian-Americans have faced discrimination. American Jews did (and still do) face it far more frequently—sometimes (though certainly less often than average) from Italian-Americans.


I don’t think that either. And I think part of being sympathetic and empathetic entails being mindful of what you should and should not comment on, as an outsider, when it comes to different groups.
I can see how this discussion could continue on a bit, but again we should get back to the topic of this thread...

Ha!

As we try to do that, just two things I'd like to add before moving on. That Jews have a "stranglehold" on Hollywood is not what the trope is about. Not for most people I don't think. It's more about what Chappelle also observed and joked about. Thank goodness there's no "complete control." Who thinks that? You seem to be exaggerating wildly to make the point you want to make. More than a bit too much in my opinion.

Also more generally speaking, about this discussion and this forum, some time ago I tried to take some of these topics up in the "Ask a Jew" thread and that forum. No doubt deemed more appropriate by just about anyone, including me. I stopped over time and purposely moved away from there however, because the reaction was so over-the-top beyond reason in my opinion FROM SOME, I couldn't take it anymore.

Glad I've been able to carry on some of this sort of discussion with you here, and if by chance you know of a better place to carry on this discussion, I'll follow your lead if interested, but not by way of DM please. For the reasons I explained to you before.

Thanks again. Sincerely!

LM
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:38 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,327 posts, read 12,997,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
That Jews have a "stranglehold" on Hollywood is not what the trope is about. Not for most people I don't think. It's more about what Chappelle also observed and joked about. Thank goodness there's no "complete control." Who thinks that? You seem to be exaggerating wildly to make the point you want to make. More than a bit too much in my opinion.
Then what do you think the trope is about? I’m not one to wildly exaggerate on purpose, but I won’t claim I’ve never made a strawman argument in the heat of a moment.
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:43 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
Then what do you think the trope is about? I’m not one to wildly exaggerate on purpose, but I won’t claim I’ve never made a strawman argument in the heat of a moment.
Please read my ENTIRE comment again, including the part you chose to quote, and hopefully that answers your question and explains why in part I'm signing off now. Perhaps to carry on this discussion elsewhere if/when I return. In the meantime! Thanks again!
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:48 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,327 posts, read 12,997,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Please read my ENTIRE comment again, including the part you chose to quote, and hopefully that answers your question and explains why in part I'm signing off now. Perhaps to carry on this discussion elsewhere if/when I return. In the meantime! Thanks again!
It doesn’t answer my question, but I’m happy to discuss further here (or elsewhere at your discretion) if you care to continue. If not, that’s all right, too.
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Old 02-27-2023, 06:24 PM
 
22,151 posts, read 19,203,648 times
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Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
This new age phenomena having to do with the influence of social media is another very interesting topic, and that "fine line" between free speech and what should be banned is also heavily debated. Not only the effort to prevent hate of others but hate of ourselves! These latest findings with regard to how many young women are being negatively affected by social media is alarming. Affecting their self-image, to the point of suicide? Sometimes I am truly glad many of these problems or issues were not so prevalent when we were raising our own, but then I think about their children, and ugh. Just ugh, but somehow the next generation finds a way through what the prior generation always thinks is "the end of days." It's not...
again, no one has said anything about banning.
just pointing out stale bigotry. and virulent disrespect and disregard for women.

post above purports to have concern about "young women's self image" but at the same time praises a public figure who regularly jokes about rape, and routinely refers to women as "bitc**s". There is a huge disconnect there.
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Old 02-28-2023, 07:25 AM
 
15,951 posts, read 7,012,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is not about censoring anything.
no one is saying censor anything.

and the point is not "the performance" the point is recognizing the adverse effects and influence which public figures have due to their voice and platform. and how they yes do have a real world effect in perpetuating, inciting, and giving others license to harm.

his current work strikes me as lowest common denominator stale bigotry. my observation is there are readers who share that bigotry and by sharing clips it gives them license to publicize and hide behind and snicker at and agree with that stale bigotry. from the distance of "oh its just a joke" "but its funny" "objections to this are unreasonable" "but he's popular and makes a lot of money"

here is another in my view thoughtful intelligent piece with depth, on the arc of his work over the decades, and how it is problematic currently
article Dave Chappelle's Big Lie,

"It is hard for me, as a woman in her 30s, to think about the reactions I saw adult Black men, and women, have to the Kelly tape back then and for many years after. To me, it seems that the bit and the positive reception to it spoke volumes about the inability of Chappelle, and most people, to have empathy for Black girls and women. We wouldn’t laugh—side by side with White folks— about any of the instances of Black men or boys being harmed by state violence. How could Black women be asked to laugh at rape jokes alongside, essentially, the same folks who’d be allowed to rape us with impunity? It’s the Black A** Lie."
Chappelle is not a public figure. He is a talented entertainer. He is also the product of his own individual life experience and education. He draws from it for his performance, which is what all artists do. Nobody can question another’s life experience, it is his. An artist’s responsibility to his art is to be a mirror that reflects life, society. Nothing more and nothing less. What we see in that mirror is our own interpretation. We need artists and good comedy is art.
A small part of his monologue was centered on Kanye, and Kanye cut a sorry figure in it. The man has a history of acting and saying stupid things, and the state of his mental health has been questioned many times. Neither of them are inciting hate. Nether of them are saying anything close to the hate that a former president of the US has incited over Muslims and migrants. And he is a public figure. There is no comparison.
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