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Old 12-08-2022, 12:06 PM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,175,000 times
Reputation: 374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Okay I'm going to leave this conversation here. There are already too many wires crossed.



I've already been through what religion means in this thread.
But suffice the say that religion had it's own definition and its not what you describe in your previous post.
Have a great day.
did i? Long ago it turned my understanding back on my feet, so to say.
Good day to you.
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Old 12-08-2022, 12:10 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,648,081 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I have read plenty many enough of your answers over and over again to know quite well what your answer would be here again, so nothing lost in terms of what happens here going forward either way I don't think...
This is true.
It would be going over often crossed old ground.
It doesn't change what is and what isn't.
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Old 12-08-2022, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,765 posts, read 4,971,895 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
Also, i see a lot of ignorance. 'Natural human religion' is something that built in in human consciousness, part of human essense and experience. It may or not fit into 'created' by humans religion. I think a manifestation of natural human reigion may be shamanism.
But seeing water in a mirage is also built into human consciousness, as is the ability to see colors (which do not exist outside of our mind), so your natural human religion could just be our innate ability to see purpose where none exists.

As in the post below, which explains why people believe in different, contradictory gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
I liked Michael Shermer on this one. We are the descendents of those who ran when the leaves rustled be it from the wind or a predator. It's on our nature to infuse agency.
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Old 12-09-2022, 05:37 AM
 
Location: minnesota
15,851 posts, read 6,311,569 times
Reputation: 5055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
But seeing water in a mirage is also built into human consciousness, as is the ability to see colors (which do not exist outside of our mind), so your natural human religion could just be our innate ability to see purpose where none exists.

As in the post below, which explains why people believe in different, contradictory gods.
I was thinking about that rustling leaves explanation and how we not only infuse agency but intent. The ones who survived treated whatever made the noise as an agent but also an agent intent of eating them.
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Old 12-09-2022, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,960 posts, read 13,455,445 times
Reputation: 9917
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
I was thinking about that rustling leaves explanation and how we not only infuse agency but intent. The ones who survived treated whatever made the noise as an agent but also an agent intent of eating them.
"They're out to get me" is dysfunctional socially but a survival adaptation just the same.
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Old 12-09-2022, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
11,110 posts, read 9,806,194 times
Reputation: 40166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
"They're out to get me" is dysfunctional socially but a survival adaptation just the same.
I think that much of human civilization is centered around an attempt to overcome - or 'buff out' - all these impulses that used to be so useful to humanity.

We used to live in small bands where everyone knew everyone else. Such a band would consist of fewer than 100 people. Anthropologist Robin Dunbar has described an upper limit as to how many bilateral relationships a person can have, to the extent where they genuinely know someone on a substantive level. This number is known as the Dunbar Number. Presumably, it was shaped by the typical band size.

Anyway, it's 40,000 years ago and we're living in some valley in what is now Italy. There's 78 of us. I know you and you know me, and each of us knows all of the 76 others members of our band: children, the elderly (not many of them at all), and the productive adults. If we see someone we don't recognize - for example, if someone from the next band occupying the next valley wanders over the hills into ours - we kill them if we think we can get away with it (if not, we run away). Why do we kill them? Because they're a potential threat. They might try and kill us, for the same reason (Kill unto others before they can kill unto you). Because their stuff (items, territory) would enhance our ability to survive if we had it. They were unknown to us. For that reason, they did not fall into the bounds of those we had to treat with some degree of respect. In the year 37,978 BCE, these inclinations we useful.

All these millennia later, they are still deeply imbued in us, and we generally work to create a web of rules that overcomes them. But they lurk. It's why 'othering' works so well. People with the 'wrong' skin color, or speaking the 'wrong' language, or practicing the 'wrong' sexual acts, or wearing the 'wrong' attire (etc. - one could go on for literally thousands of iterations on this theme) are going to be easy targets for exploitation by those who see a chance to gain power over the group they cast as possessing the 'right' attributes.

So we invent moral codes and political manifests and social disapprobations and rules of conduct and whatnot, all intended to overcome those impulses that were selected by biological and social evolution and which functioned well in small social units but don't work at all in the large units of modern society. And there's an ongoing tension between the two - the latent impulse and the modern necessity.

So there's 'them' and there's 'us'. And they want to hurt us, so let's hurt them first - or at least subjugate them so they don't possess the power to hurt us. And this mindset, spurred on by a prehistoric utility, drives so much of our modern conflict, and is the subject of so much of civilization's attempt to square modern necessity with the animals (I mean that literally, not pejoratively) that we are.
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Old 12-09-2022, 09:12 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I think intuition means that some people are better at reading social and environmental cues than others. They are more tuned in to the world around them. An extension of instinct.
I think some people may be more tuned in to factors that others are not.
For example when a was a very small child I remember having a fear of almost all men, even some men I knew well. I've never been abused or anything like that. I eventually I grew out of it. I think fears like that are innate and practical. I think intuition is an extension of those sort of innate responses as well as learned experiences.
My wife sometimes tells me I am not picking up on the cues or vibes being given off by someone like she is able to detect. "Undercurrents" she picks up that I don't. A "woman's intuition?"

I find myself arguing, "no, she didn't mean that at all." Or no, "they're just having a bad day is all." Or, "I didn't get that vibe at all..."

Could be she is right sometimes. Maybe most of the time, but I'm never too sure if she isn't overly sensitive many of the times as well. What cues, vibes or undercurrents she's picking up that I'm not have more to do with where she is coming from rather than where they are coming from. Hard to tell most of the time anyway...

Last edited by LearnMe; 12-09-2022 at 09:23 AM..
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Old 12-09-2022, 09:14 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
A psychic that I used to occasionally visit said that intuition is your spirit guide talking to you.
Sounds like a psychic...
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Old 12-09-2022, 09:21 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
I think that much of human civilization is centered around an attempt to overcome - or 'buff out' - all these impulses that used to be so useful to humanity.

We used to live in small bands where everyone knew everyone else. Such a band would consist of fewer than 100 people. Anthropologist Robin Dunbar has described an upper limit as to how many bilateral relationships a person can have, to the extent where they genuinely know someone on a substantive level. This number is known as the Dunbar Number. Presumably, it was shaped by the typical band size.

Anyway, it's 40,000 years ago and we're living in some valley in what is now Italy. There's 78 of us. I know you and you know me, and each of us knows all of the 76 others members of our band: children, the elderly (not many of them at all), and the productive adults. If we see someone we don't recognize - for example, if someone from the next band occupying the next valley wanders over the hills into ours - we kill them if we think we can get away with it (if not, we run away). Why do we kill them? Because they're a potential threat. They might try and kill us, for the same reason (Kill unto others before they can kill unto you). Because their stuff (items, territory) would enhance our ability to survive if we had it. They were unknown to us. For that reason, they did not fall into the bounds of those we had to treat with some degree of respect. In the year 37,978 BCE, these inclinations we useful.

All these millennia later, they are still deeply imbued in us, and we generally work to create a web of rules that overcomes them. But they lurk. It's why 'othering' works so well. People with the 'wrong' skin color, or speaking the 'wrong' language, or practicing the 'wrong' sexual acts, or wearing the 'wrong' attire (etc. - one could go on for literally thousands of iterations on this theme) are going to be easy targets for exploitation by those who see a chance to gain power over the group they cast as possessing the 'right' attributes.

So we invent moral codes and political manifests and social disapprobations and rules of conduct and whatnot, all intended to overcome those impulses that were selected by biological and social evolution and which functioned well in small social units but don't work at all in the large units of modern society. And there's an ongoing tension between the two - the latent impulse and the modern necessity.

So there's 'them' and there's 'us'. And they want to hurt us, so let's hurt them first - or at least subjugate them so they don't possess the power to hurt us. And this mindset, spurred on by a prehistoric utility, drives so much of our modern conflict, and is the subject of so much of civilization's attempt to square modern necessity with the animals (I mean that literally, not pejoratively) that we are.
There is no question we humans are still dealing with the way(s) we evolved to best deal with ancient issues that are no longer present or relevant. Impulses and actions that promoted our survival, procreation, is one of many primary examples. Look at how far we have come in terms of changing our ways despite the same primal impulses that we're now called upon to control in ways not necessary or expected in the past. The list is long and varied with regard to "how we're built" versus proper modern day acceptable behavior.
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Old 12-09-2022, 11:32 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,175,000 times
Reputation: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
But seeing water in a mirage is also built into human consciousness, as is the ability to see colors (which do not exist outside of our mind), so your natural human religion could just be our innate ability to see purpose where none exists.

As in the post below, which explains why people believe in different, contradictory gods.
"contradictory gods" - that does not match my experience.
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