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Old 01-06-2023, 01:05 PM
 
427 posts, read 108,231 times
Reputation: 42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Can you explain it using your god hypothesis? Not just assert a god did it, explain it, as in how a god did it, how a god knew how do do it, and how you know about what this god knows?

No, I can't Harry. All natural phenomena, to me, are mysteries. I neither know what I am nor why I am alive. Naturalism says I am a human being, an inhabitant of planet Earth. I think it is all cooked up.

I was listening to a philosophy lecture by the fireplace last night while sipping a shot of whiskey. It was about Camus and the Myth of Sisyphus. The topic was that life is absurd; human life, that is. It is like rolling a boulder to the top of a hill only for it to roll back down for Sisyphus to roll it up again. Sisyphus would do that over and over again all life long till he dies. We Americans call that pushing poop uphill. Isn't that an apt description of human life on planet Earth? Same old meaningless grind from birth to death.

And the lecturer pointed out that his dog doesn't sit around all day pondering about the meaning of its existence. It just doesn't do that. Are naturalists like dogs, Harry? Dismiss all natural phenomena by coming up with causes for every damn thing including the origin of the universe with a big bang.
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Old 01-06-2023, 01:34 PM
 
15,478 posts, read 6,323,234 times
Reputation: 8189
Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post

(Note: The word "idiot" is not being used here as a pejorative but in an objective sense equivalent to "coarse mind" affected by the primordial force of ignorance or avidya (sanskrit). I speak American.)
Nicely done Our natural state, until we get some paravidya.
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Old 01-06-2023, 01:42 PM
 
427 posts, read 108,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
And yet you want 'proof' that 'that masses attract each other'?

Yeah, I want proof.

Forget the attraction. What are masses, anyway? What the hell are they? Masses attract each other, Newton said, and we swallowed that assertion. Your body has mass and that is why the Earth, which also has mass, can attract it. Can you feel the attraction, Harry? It's the pull force of the Earth on, not you, but your body. Your body has mass. You are something else that naturalism says is created by neurons in the body of the brain. You have no mass. What has naturalism got to say about you? Psychology Today has all the answers. It's the Bible of naturalists.
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Old 01-06-2023, 01:53 PM
 
412 posts, read 90,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Take a simple example of naturalism's conclusion about itself as a belief that everything arises from natural causes. How does this belief arise? Is it a conclusion of science?
No it is not. This is a conclusion of philosophical naturalism which science has nothing to do with.
That much was pointed out to you already.


If you insist on continue to straw-man rational (scientific) position on naturalism as a research methodology and not a truth claim ("everything arises from natural causes") then for us (atheists here you are so eager to debate) that would mean that you are either intellectually dishonest troll looking for a soft target to unleash some sophistry upon, or you are just a trivial idiot (I speak American)

Either way, engaging with you would be a waste of time.



Personally, I'm leaning toward former.
If that's the case, I can assure you, if you are looking for a soft target, you are in a wrong place.
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Old 01-06-2023, 03:01 PM
 
62,026 posts, read 38,080,189 times
Reputation: 7561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Can you explain it using your god hypothesis? Not just assert a god did it, explain it, as in how a god did it, how a god knew how do do it, and how you know about what this god knows?
Just about as well as you can explain how your Nature did it when it came into existence. How it knew what kind of laws to establish, what kind of processes to imbue elements and chemicals with to produce life, what instincts to imbue that life with to ensure survival and proper functioning, etc., etc., and how Nature "knew" how to do all that without awareness. You have awareness so when you suddenly came into existence you should be able to know how YOU were able to have a body that functions as it does. How did YOU do it?
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Old 01-06-2023, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
18,613 posts, read 12,608,075 times
Reputation: 9144
Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
All natural phenomena, to me, are mysteries. I neither know what I am nor why I am alive. Naturalism says I am a human being, an inhabitant of planet Earth. I think it is all cooked up.

I was listening to a philosophy lecture by the fireplace last night while sipping a shot of whiskey. It was about Camus and the Myth of Sisyphus. The topic was that life is absurd; human life, that is. It is like rolling a boulder to the top of a hill only for it to roll back down for Sisyphus to roll it up again. Sisyphus would do that over and over again all life long till he dies. We Americans call that pushing poop uphill. Isn't that an apt description of human life on planet Earth? Same old meaningless grind from birth to death.

And the lecturer pointed out that his dog doesn't sit around all day pondering about the meaning of its existence. It just doesn't do that. Are naturalists like dogs, Harry? Dismiss all natural phenomena by coming up with causes for every damn thing including the origin of the universe with a big bang.
I don't see the coherence in your views. You are clearly using a computer in order to inconvenience electrons so that we can have this conversation, yet you think it is "all cooked up". You drink whiskey by the fireplace while you contemplate the absurdity of existence and its meaninglessness ... so I assume you don't want to understand it, just accept natural phenomena on their own terms and not try to understand or harness them in any way? Why do you use computers then, or drink whiskey, or light your house with electricity? Are you willing for other people to understand them on your behalf?

It appears you regard methodological naturalism as a denial of the natural order, when in fact it's more or less the opposite of that.

I'm all in favor of anyone doing what they must to get through their days. But I'm just not getting how your thought process helps.
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Old 01-06-2023, 09:05 PM
 
427 posts, read 108,231 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I don't see the coherence in your views. You are clearly using a computer in order to inconvenience electrons so that we can have this conversation, yet you think it is "all cooked up". You drink whiskey by the fireplace while you contemplate the absurdity of existence and its meaninglessness ... so I assume you don't want to understand it, just accept natural phenomena on their own terms and not try to understand or harness them in any way? Why do you use computers then, or drink whiskey, or light your house with electricity? Are you willing for other people to understand them on your behalf?

It appears you regard methodological naturalism as a denial of the natural order, when in fact it's more or less the opposite of that.

I'm all in favor of anyone doing what they must to get through their days. But I'm just not getting how your thought process helps.



My thought process doesn't help me at all. All the thought process does is help you and me roll that boulder up the hill even though we both know that damn thing will roll downhill again. Are you doing anything that your father, and his father wasn't doing all their lives rolling that boulder uphill? Naturalism got us into this fix. "We are caught in a trap and can't walk out." (Elvis)

Nobody understands anything. All we have are beliefs of naturalism. They reinforce the illusion of an individual self. The Buddha said:"Things are not what they seem. Deeds exist, but no doer can be found” (Majjhima Nikaya, 192).
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Old 01-07-2023, 03:34 AM
 
Location: Germany
15,992 posts, read 4,468,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Precisely. Conclusions are all that naturalism can make based on observations of natural phenomena.

Take a simple example of naturalism's conclusion about itself as a belief that everything arises from natural causes. How does this belief arise? Is it a conclusion of science? What is the natural cause of the belief? What is the evidence upon which this conclusion is based?
The evidence is there is no evidence for an intelligent being behind it all, and no intelligence is required for it. From why stars and galaxies form to why atoms like to make molecules, we understand the why without a need to say an intelligence is responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Don't walk away from this conversation, Harry.
Walking away? I am cooking pop corn.
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Old 01-07-2023, 03:41 AM
 
Location: Germany
15,992 posts, read 4,468,077 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Yeah, I want proof.

Forget the attraction. What are masses, anyway? What the hell are they? Masses attract each other, Newton said, and we swallowed that assertion.
We did not swallow it, we tested it. And the tests worked. And we observe this across the universe. And that is a lot of evidence. Do you have a better answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Your body has mass and that is why the Earth, which also has mass, can attract it. Can you feel the attraction, Harry? It's the pull force of the Earth on, not you, but your body. Your body has mass. You are something else that naturalism says is created by neurons in the body of the brain. You have no mass. What has naturalism got to say about you?
Yes, a process has no mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2 View Post
Psychology Today has all the answers. It's the Bible of naturalists.
Perhaps you should take a minute and read your posts before submitting them.
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Old 01-07-2023, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Germany
15,992 posts, read 4,468,077 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Just about as well as you can explain how your Nature did it when it came into existence.
No you can not, you can only assert while dismissing the evidence you do not like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How it knew what kind of laws to establish, what kind of processes to imbue elements and chemicals with to produce life, what instincts to imbue that life with to ensure survival and proper functioning, etc., etc., and how Nature "knew" how to do all that without awareness.
The fact that most of the very large and very old universe is not life friendly is a big clue. You should spend your time following the evidence instead of building straw men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You have awareness so when you suddenly came into existence you should be able to know how YOU were able to have a body that functions as it does. How did YOU do it?
there we have it, every living thing should know how they were able to have a body that functions as it does, because Mystic says so.
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