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It is not merely clam when something needs to be known. It is a knowing. When you hear orange, you know what that is, it forms in your mind. Is that a claim or a knowing? That the Self exists works on the mind the same way once it is understood. It is a knowing.
You are not required to believe any of this or accept or anything. It is actually better you do not attempt to do so. But i like discussing these concepts in the forum with others who are similarly moved by spirituality and would like to do so without having to explain these concepts to ypu who is not ready for it. It requires an understanding of a vocabulary that escapes you.
You are fine as you are without being educated about something you have no interest in. Why do you persist?
A teacher is one who helps you understand, not just the text, but all the implications.
yes.
and the teacher who did not talk, by sitting calmly in silence, with me wondering what is going on here, was indicating to me, not by saying but by doing, not by answering but by showing, that before we could get to any of my questions, i needed to cultivate stillness, cultivate awareness, sit in silence and observe. That was over 25 years ago and i am still seeing how central that is to, well exactly the questions i was asking way back then. These many decades later I can say with certainty that the single most important practice there is for me is just that: to sit in restful calm silence, peaceful stillness within, and simply observe. The internal piece is observe and let go, observe and let go.
so as strange as it was to be with the teacher who did not talk, that in retrospect was one of the most powerful set of lessons for me. i couldn't make sense of it then. but the past few years i've been starting to get it now. and i still draw on all that was conveyed.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-19-2023 at 11:10 PM..
I've never been one not to care about the opinions of others, but about that too, we all must decide to what extent we consider alternative opinions...
In some cases we have to gain. In some cases not so much. From who, how or why? To what extent? All for us to determine as we will while we go down this path of life that has us encountering others and their opinions along our way.
Yes. I remember you asking once if we should respect the opinion of somebody saying that the Earth is flat. But I guess that shows the distinction between an opinion, a belief, and a claim. The focus was not really should a statement like that be respected or not. If you don't, you can't. Instead, my preference is to determine if it is worth holding it accountable.
But, for me, the tricky part was the word accountable. It normally has a negative connotation like in the earlier example when my daughter said she wouldn't count the money I give to her, but she would do it to others. Accountable can also be something positive where somebody takes the time to test your belief so that maybe you start forming a different perspective. Sort of like a teacher. So the belief, opinion, or statement was considered by somebody else and tested. Now the one whose assumptions have taken a different course feels seen, respected, and guided.
So when the claim, belief, or opinion statement is shared, the intention has to be considered. If I ignore their statement, do they feel unheard and disrespected? If I pay attention to it and question their assertions or run it through my accountable system, is that what they wanted? If I agree with them, do they feel that I am patronizing?
yes.
and the teacher who did not talk, by sitting calmly in silence, with me wondering what is going on here, was indicating to me, not by saying but by doing, not by answering but by showing, that before we could get to any of my questions, i needed to cultivate stillness, cultivate awareness, sit in silence and observe. That was over 25 years ago and i am still seeing how central that is to, well exactly the questions i was asking way back then. These many decades later I can say with certainty that the single most important practice there is for me is just that: to sit in restful calm silence, peaceful stillness within, and simply observe. The internal piece is observe and let go, observe and let go.
so as strange as it was to be with the teacher who did not talk, that in retrospect was one of the most powerful set of lessons for me. i couldn't make sense of it then. but the past few years i've been starting to get it now. and i still draw on all that was conveyed.
The "why" is because you actually seem to THINK your atheistic view of our Reality as regards R&S topics is de rigueur based on universal facts and unquestionably true. But that is just your opinion. No more and no less. As such no more worthy than mine or anyone else posting in this forum who doesn't get banished.
True, but I would not go as far as to suggest any opinion is as good as the next. No better or worse than the next. There are opinions based on facts, truth and sound reason, and then there are opinions that can't be considered as worthy or well justified. Which is which?
Again for all of us to judge as we will...
Yes again. I have my opinions about all this. Who doesn't? The same or different based on a wide variety of different ways of thinking. Nothing hard to understand or accept about this either far as I'm concerned. Why do you keep belaboring the obvious about this? I really don't know that either.
Yes. I remember you asking once if we should respect the opinion of somebody saying that the Earth is flat. But I guess that shows the distinction between an opinion, a belief, and a claim. The focus was not really should a statement like that be respected or not. If you don't, you can't. Instead, my preference is to determine if it is worth holding it accountable.
But, for me, the tricky part was the word accountable. It normally has a negative connotation like in the earlier example when my daughter said she wouldn't count the money I give to her, but she would do it to others. Accountable can also be something positive where somebody takes the time to test your belief so that maybe you start forming a different perspective. Sort of like a teacher. So the belief, opinion, or statement was considered by somebody else and tested. Now the one whose assumptions have taken a different course feels seen, respected, and guided.
So when the claim, belief, or opinion statement is shared, the intention has to be considered. If I ignore their statement, do they feel unheard and disrespected? If I pay attention to it and question their assertions or run it through my accountable system, is that what they wanted? If I agree with them, do they feel that I am patronizing?
Interesting as usual elyn...
I have to think a bit about whether the respect for an opinion "shows the distinction between an opinion, a belief, and a claim." And/or what about the distinction between claims, facts and truths? I also can't really speak for anyone else, but the extent to which I respect an opinion is based on a variety of factors not easily summarized in a simple comment. I can simply say I don't respect opinions that involve misrepresentations, falsehoods and claims of fact or truth that are nothing of the sort. The focus may or may not be about respect, but of course that depends on what choice of focus we are inclined to favor for whatever our personal reasons.
You certainly have your unique way of looking at things as well, and though not entirely similar to mine, I respect your efforts and your way of going about assessing these exchanges of opinion in the way you do. To draw the sorts of conclusions that you do. Yes, intention should always be considered as well.
Reminding me of something I often remind my wife when she draws attention to someone who is "behaving badly." It's not always intentional or personal or because of the reason(s) we might assume. Sometimes it's just someone having a bad day for example. Not because they don't like you.
True, but I would not go as far as to suggest any opinion is as good as the next. No better or worse than the next. There are opinions based on facts, truth and sound reason, and then there are opinions that can't be considered as worthy or well justified. Which is which? Again for all of us to judge as we will...Yes again. I have my opinions about all this. Who doesn't? The same or different based on a wide variety of different ways of thinking. Nothing hard to understand or accept about this either far as I'm concerned. Why do you keep belaboring the obvious about this? I really don't know that either.
it sounds like bold above is simply saying "my beliefs are better than yours."
which is pointless. it reminds me of little kids arguing about what to watch on TV with the "my shows are better than yours."
Pointless. or little kids arguing amongst themselves "macaroni cheese is better than pizza." "nuh-uh" "yes way" "wanna bet" and honestly think they can prove it. also pointless. difference is most people grow out of that. or as an adult can see the oh so many reasons why grown ups don't go down that path.
it sounds like bold above is simply saying "my beliefs are better than yours."
which is pointless. it reminds me of little kids arguing about what to watch on TV with the "my shows are better than yours."
Pointless. or little kids arguing amongst themselves "macaroni cheese is better than pizza." "nuh-uh" "yes way" "wanna bet" and honestly think they can prove it. also pointless. difference is most people grow out of that. or as an adult can see the oh so many reasons why grown ups don't go down that path.
The difference is one is subjective, the other is not, so no, it is not like children arguing.
I have to think a bit about whether the respect for an opinion "shows the distinction between an opinion, a belief, and a claim." And/or what about the distinction between claims, facts and truths? I also can't really speak for anyone else, but the extent to which I respect an opinion is based on a variety of factors not easily summarized in a simple comment. I can simply say I don't respect opinions that involve misrepresentations, falsehoods and claims of fact or truth that are nothing of the sort. The focus may or may not be about respect, but of course that depends on what choice of focus we are inclined to favor for whatever our personal reasons.
You certainly have your unique way of looking at things as well, and though not entirely similar to mine, I respect your efforts and your way of going about assessing these exchanges of opinion in the way you do. To draw the sorts of conclusions that you do. Yes, intention should always be considered as well.
Reminding me of something I often remind my wife when she draws attention to someone who is "behaving badly." It's not always intentional or personal or because of the reason(s) we might assume. Sometimes it's just someone having a bad day for example. Not because they don't like you.
If you don't respect a statement, the person quickly turns it into a belief or opinion that you-don't-have-the-right-to-question. The distinction between claims, facts, and truths? Categorically, claims and truths would be grouped together. Facts would be a subgroup that supports claims or truths. Facts don't exist in isolation; they are always pointed out to make a point. The facts that are picked are subjective.
That's a good point at the end about people behaving badly. My focus was more on when people say things directly to me.
The difference is one is subjective, the other is not, so no, it is not like children arguing. Adults understand that difference.
reasons for holding a belief are subjective.
that's why it is pointless to argue "my beliefs are better than yours"
or as the earlier post put forth "more worthy opinions."
people have reasons for holding the beliefs, opinions, views they choose to have.
and those reasons are subjective.
just like kids arguing which TV show is better. Same as the post above stating their own subjective reasons for the beliefs they hold.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-22-2023 at 06:55 AM..
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You found your guru! You are blessed.
