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Okay, I’ll bite. I’m Christian and your OP clearly doesn’t understand what it means to be Christian or, even, religious.
To contend that Jesus doesn’t exist and, then, ask that a Christian “prove” it would be like asking any religious person to prove that God (in any form) exists. The whole point of faith is that one believes without proof (or what most people would call proof, ie. scientific facts).
Do I believe that Jesus exists? Yes. Do I have proof? Yes. Is that proof in accordance with the scientific method? No. Such is faith.
My question to you is why are you focusing specifically on Jesus Christ? Why not just ask any one, of any faith, to prove that their God/gods exist? They are, essentially, the same question.
You clearly aren't interested in having a debate. You admit there's no external evidence for Jesus; that's it's a matter of faith. I wish you well. I want to debate someone who believes there is external evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.
FACT 1: There is no historical evidence for Jesus outside the New Testament--the New Testament scholars agreeing that the New Testament is a religious manifesto with fictional characters set within a historical period much like Gone With the Wind being a fictional story set within the Civil War.
OK. This thread is being reopened. We've just deleted 11 posts to try to get this thread back on topic. Now, let's get a few things straight.
There is no need to repeat to "facts" that you want to discuss. You've already had two threads to do that. Doing it here is repetitious.
If you don't have anything to contribute to the thread, scroll on by and say nothing.
Several posts that were deleted were borderline personal attacks. If you had a post deleted as a personal attack, you should strongly consider scrolling by and posting no more in this thread.
Be sure your posts are purposeful. Discuss the topic, not the other members.
Well, OP check out my recent post (today) in Advent 2022 I talk about the mythology and symbolism of the Nativity story but also the fact that it is clearly a myth, a fabricated story, although ripe with symbolic teachings.
So we can start with Jesus' birth. A demigod (the off spring of a god with a mortal) is nothing new, in fact here is a whole lsit
One scientific fact: there has never been a known documented case of virgin birth, and IF it were to happen, then the offspring would ALWAYS be female, as the Y chromosome can only come from a male.
Consider too that Virgin Births were nothing new , including to the Nativity Myth.
Then there was the journey to Bethlehem (Luke's gospel circa 90 CE) vs already living there (Matthews gospel circa 60 CE) During Augustus' reign, as mentioned in Luke, NO Census was ever taken. Rome did take a census, on more than one occasion, but people did not travel to their hometowns for it. They were, as now, counted in place. AS for taxation, (as in King James Versions) citizens of occupied kingdoms such as Judea were not taxed by Rome.
SO discussing the topic at hand, the birth itself starts off with items taken from mythology or otherwise fabricated. And that is just the very beginning. To list all the myths of the Gospels will take us well into the next year, but will be most interesting.
any thread or any atheist or any opening post which drags out the tired trope of "prove someone in the Bible exists" misses entirely the whole point of religion and spirituality altogether. and if an OP demonstrates they miss entirely the whole point of religion and spirituality altogether, then that accounts in large part for the dearth of the types of participation which the OP apparently desires.
yes atheists can post about anything they want in the religion and spirituality forum. but trying to browbeat insult and demand others engage in discussion, and calling views which may differ from theirs "rubbish" is not a recipe for robust dialog.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-26-2022 at 04:03 PM..
No, they are not written by historians, but by religious partisans with agendas. Neither do they discuss their methods or standards. There is no internal evidence that they are based on interviews with eyewitnesses, and they were certainly not written by eyewitnesses (their authorship comes from traditional attributions, but also, they were written much too late for the authors to themselves have personally witnessed Jesus. The only thing newer than the gospels in the NT, is the Revelation of John.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myuen2
Debating myths is for historians. It is for academics. Debating the existence of a living truth is more challenging. It requires intelligence. Are you up to it?
*Yawn* well ... go ahead and present actual evidence. Note that scriptures and personal testimony are claims, not evidence.
One scientific fact: there has never been a known documented case of virgin birth, and IF it were to happen, then the offspring would ALWAYS be female, as the Y chromosome can only come from a male.
While I never thought the idea of Mary’s virginal conception to be true, or capable of truth, for a whole host of reasons, that’s a major plot hole I hadn’t ever considered. In fairness to the New Testament’s writers, this tidbit of scientific knowledge was discovered eons after the fact. And even today, any number of deus ex machinae could be employed to solve this dilemma. For example, perhaps Mary was intersex, making Christ’s divine conception far more miraculous than the old virgin birth trope!
While I never thought the idea of Mary’s virginal conception to be true, or capable of truth, for a whole host of reasons, that’s a major plot hole I hadn’t ever considered. In fairness to the New Testament’s writers, this tidbit of scientific knowledge was discovered eons after the fact. And even today, any number of deus ex machinae could be employed to solve this dilemma. For example, perhaps Mary was intersex, making Christ’s divine conception far more miraculous than the old virgin birth trope!
Meh, or perhaps it was just a miracle in more ways than was either known or asserted at the time. The miraculous is the deux ex machina of choice for Christians, so this is not going to sway them.
Well, OP check out my recent post (today) in Advent 2022 I talk about the mythology and symbolism of the Nativity story but also the fact that it is clearly a myth, a fabricated story, although ripe with symbolic teachings.
So we can start with Jesus' birth. A demigod (the off spring of a god with a mortal) is nothing new, in fact here is a whole lsit
One scientific fact: there has never been a known documented case of virgin birth, and IF it were to happen, then the offspring would ALWAYS be female, as the Y chromosome can only come from a male.
Consider too that Virgin Births were nothing new , including to the Nativity Myth.
Then there was the journey to Bethlehem (Luke's gospel circa 90 CE) vs already living there (Matthews gospel circa 60 CE) During Augustus' reign, as mentioned in Luke, NO Census was ever taken. Rome did take a census, on more than one occasion, but people did not travel to their hometowns for it. They were, as now, counted in place. AS for taxation, (as in King James Versions) citizens of occupied kingdoms such as Judea were not taxed by Rome.
SO discussing the topic at hand, the birth itself starts off with items taken from mythology or otherwise fabricated. And that is just the very beginning. To list all the myths of the Gospels will take us well into the next year, but will be most interesting.
Hmmmm...I've often stated that Jesus was likely female but the sex was changed in the story for obvious reasons. I think I remember reading somewhere that Jesus was based on God's wife.
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