Who's brave enough to debate me on the gospels Jesus being a myth or not? (society, experiences)
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Yes, but why? Our lives only have meaning because of our faith in something greater than ourselves. Keller was very religious.
Why what? Keller may have been religious, but she didn't start out that way...
...or DID she? She says that she always knew there was 'something' with her. Once she discovered God, she just 'knew', THAT was her experience.
And what about someone like Viktor Frankl? He wasn't so much "religious", but he managed to find purpose in suffering during his stint in a concentration camp. For him, the purpose was love...
Not ALL of us go through "misery", at least as "misery" can be defined by most. I was homeless for a time in my own life. But that doesn't mean I was "miserable" during that time.
Maybe it's the way we each define "suffering" and "misery" that's the problem.
It's all relative. God grants the favor of suffering to some more than others for reasons known only to Him.
Again, gotta define "suffering." And just because we may believe that someone 'suffers' because of an adverse circumstance that *we* couldn't handle, doesn't mean that it's 'suffering' to the person handling it.
Ask someone like Bethany Hamilon -- the young woman who lost her arm from a shark attack -- whether SHE feels that she's "suffering" NOW.
Ask someone like Bethany Hamilon -- the young woman who lost her arm from a shark attack -- whether SHE feels that she's "suffering" NOW.
Her feelings are dependent upon where she finds her sense of meaning and purpose.
Objectively speaking, she is suffering because she is lacking an arm.
My point in all this is that without a higher purpose/meaning, there is no principled way to classify the experience of human life for all but very few as anything but miserable and pointless. Hell or some equivalent is the only logical final outcome.
We obviously don't all have the same life experiences...so, why not have different after life experiences?
My experiences of the Oneness makes this view problematic since were are actually psychically linked with God. I did retain my sense of individuality, however, which is somewhat confusing and inexplicable. Who knows?? We will definitely find out though, of that I have no doubt.
Hell is just the default state. We live short, miserable lives. We get sick, and our last years are full of pain, misery, and disease while we watch everyone we ever cared about suffer and die. Then, as far as we can tell empirically, our bodies stink and rot and our consciousness eventually ceases to exist.
The Good News of the Gospel is that our short, miserable lives actually do have meaning; and physical death is not the end.
Her feelings are dependent upon where she finds her sense of meaning and purpose.
Objectively speaking, she is suffering because she is lacking an arm.
My point in all this is that without a higher purpose/meaning, there is no principled way to classify the experience of human life for all but very few as anything but miserable and pointless. Hell or some equivalent is the only logical final outcome.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
And who created life in that manner???
This misery and suffering is a result of the fall of man - man's disobedience to God. God created the universe good, including mankind.
And you think it's fair for all men, women, and children to be punished for something that 2 people did thousands of years ago.
It depends on what you mean by "punished". I would say that there is nothing intrinsically unfair about us suffering the consequences of their actions.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
Fine...may you be punished severely. Is that fair?
Yes; on the condition that my punishment be applied towards your redemption.
Her feelings are dependent upon where she finds her sense of meaning and purpose.
Objectively speaking, she is suffering because she is lacking an arm.
Maybe objectively to *you*. But is ALL suffering objective?
Or subjective? If the person we think 'should' be 'suffering' doesn't think *they* are suffering, well...are they, in fact, "suffering"?
Perhaps 'suffering' is also in the 'eye of the beholder'...
Quote:
My point in all this is that without a higher purpose/meaning, there is no principled way to classify the experience of human life for all but very few as anything but miserable and pointless. Hell or some equivalent is the only logical final outcome.
How 'high' does that 'purpose' go?
Does it come down to, either we're extremely happy or 'miserable'?
Maybe objectively to *you*. But is ALL suffering objective?
Or subjective? If the person we think 'should' be 'suffering' doesn't think *they* are suffering, well...are they, in fact, "suffering"?
In this sense, by objective suffering I simply meant that something is not as it should be. Eg.: she should have two arms, yet she only has one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
Perhaps 'suffering' is also in the 'eye of the beholder'...
Speaking of suffering in a subjective sense, certainly that's true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
How 'high' does that 'purpose' go?
Does it come down to, either we're extremely happy or 'miserable'?
Are those REALLY the only two options we have?
Our levels of happiness and misery are functions of how well we think we are fulfilling our perceived purpose or meaning.
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