Who's brave enough to debate me on the gospels Jesus being a myth or not? (door-to-door, nuns)
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Not resisting is not the same as volunteering at all.
To quote the Borg, resistance would have been futile.
God knew exactly what would happen when He became a man. How could there have even been any other outcome?
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
Again, he didn't 'offer' anything.
I understand that you don't believe Jesus is God; but our understanding is that He absolutely did offer Himself - His own flesh and blood, as a perfect sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf.
God knew exactly what would happen when He became a man. How could there have even been any other outcome?
Huh?
Are you saying god planned the entire thing? Crucifixion, the works?
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I understand that you don't believe Jesus is God; but our understanding is that He absolutely did offer Himself - His own flesh and blood, as a perfect sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf.
To what avail?
I still don't understand what being crucified is supposed to have achieved?
Yeah I get the statement that he 'died for our sins' etc. What relevance does Jesus dying have with anybody's past present or future supposed 'sins'?
I still don't understand what being crucified is supposed to have achieved?
Yeah I get the statement that he 'died for our sins' etc. What relevance does Jesus dying have with anybody's past present or future supposed 'sins'?
In the beginning, God created the first man and placed him in paradise, giving him everything he needed to flourish and be happy, including a woman to be his wife. This first man walked and talked with God in perfect fellowship and communion.
God gave this man one simple instruction. There was just one particular tree from which he was not permitted to eat of its fruit. Everything else in the entire world belonged to the man to do with as he pleased. God even warned the man that if he ate the fruit from that tree, that he would die.
The man disobeyed God and ate the fruit, rejecting the life of God (what we call "grace") and severing the communion between man and God. Man brought death into the world when he rejected God's life.
Throughout the ages, a part of mankind has tried to repair the relationship with God by atoning for his wrong and offering sacrifices. But since man is finite and God is infinite, mankind could not possibly offer a sacrifice worthy of the Goodness and Majesty of God.
God saw our dilemma, and because He cares about us He offered a solution. Since the only thing worthy of God is God Himself, God would Himself become the sacrifice that He would offer up to God on man's behalf. It would be of no use to man if God were to offer a sacrifice to Himself as God; so God would have to become a man so that He could offer a sacrifice on behalf of man, as a man.
He would do this by sending the Second Person of the Trinity (what we call "God the Son", or the Person of Jesus) to earth to be born of a woman and live amongst us. He would do what the first man could not - namely, submit to the will of God the Father in perfect obedience.
The perfect obedience of Christ - even to the point of a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father, that it was meritorious enough to win reconciliation and salvation for the whole human race. Christ's perfect obedience and submission was infinitely more pleasing to God than all of mankind's sins combined were displeasing. The reward won by Christ is infinite, sufficient to be distributed to anyone who lays claim to it.
At last, man had offered a sacrifice to God that was worthy of God - God's own Son.
In the beginning, God created the first man and placed him in paradise, giving him everything he needed to flourish and be happy, including a woman to be his wife. This first man walked and talked with God in perfect fellowship and communion.
God gave this man one simple instruction. There was just one particular tree from which he was not permitted to eat of its fruit. Everything else in the entire world belonged to the man to do with as he pleased. God even warned the man that if he ate the fruit from that tree, that he would die.
The man disobeyed God and ate the fruit, rejecting the life of God (what we call "grace") and severing the communion between man and God. Man brought death into the world when he rejected God's life.
Throughout the ages, a part of mankind has tried to repair the relationship with God by atoning for his wrong and offering sacrifices. But since man is finite and God is infinite, mankind could not possibly offer a sacrifice worthy of the Goodness and Majesty of God.
God saw our dilemma, and because He cares about us He offered a solution. Since the only thing worthy of God is God Himself, God would Himself become the sacrifice that He would offer up to God on man's behalf. It would be of no use to man if God were to offer a sacrifice to Himself as God; so God would have to become a man so that He could offer a sacrifice on behalf of man, as a man.
He would do this by sending the Second Person of the Trinity (what we call "God the Son", or the Person of Jesus) to earth to be born of a woman and live amongst us. He would do what the first man could not - namely, submit to the will of God the Father in perfect obedience.
The perfect obedience of Christ - even to the point of a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father, that it was meritorious enough to win reconciliation and salvation for the whole human race. Christ's perfect obedience and submission was infinitely more pleasing to God than all of mankind's sins combined were displeasing. The reward won by Christ is infinite, sufficient to be distributed to anyone who lays claim to it.
At last, man had offered a sacrifice to God that was worthy of God - God's own Son.
The fact that that makes sense to you and the idea that " a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father" does not shock your spiritual sensibilities is extremely worrisome to me. I do not feel good about the status of your Soul (Spirit), Mike.
The fact that that makes sense to you and the idea that " a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father" does not shock your spiritual sensibilities is extremely worrisome to me. I do not feel good about the status of your Soul (Spirit), Mike.
It was not the "act" of Christ's death on the cross that was 'pleasing' to God; it was his Son's obedience even "unto death" that was pleasing to Him.
Christ did what he did in order to fulfill prophecy. He mentioned this a number of times.
In the beginning, God created the first man and placed him in paradise, giving him everything he needed to flourish and be happy, including a woman to be his wife. This first man walked and talked with God in perfect fellowship and communion.
God gave this man one simple instruction. There was just one particular tree from which he was not permitted to eat of its fruit. Everything else in the entire world belonged to the man to do with as he pleased. God even warned the man that if he ate the fruit from that tree, that he would die.
The man disobeyed God and ate the fruit, rejecting the life of God (what we call "grace") and severing the communion between man and God. Man brought death into the world when he rejected God's life.
God failed right out of the gate by inventing a being that couldn't even follow one simple instruction.
There's gods first mistake. Also he went back on his word. Man didn't die.
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Throughout the ages, a part of mankind has tried to repair the relationship with God by atoning for his wrong and offering sacrifices. But since man is finite and God is infinite, mankind could not possibly offer a sacrifice worthy of the Goodness and Majesty of God.
God saw our dilemma, and because He cares about us He offered a solution.
... perhaps at this point, or some point earlier, god could have practiced what he preached and said "I forgive you" and let the whole thing slide.
Instead he concocts this elaborate plan to teach humanity a lesson...
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Since the only thing worthy of God is God Himself, God would Himself become the sacrifice that He would offer up to God on man's behalf. It would be of no use to man if God were to offer a sacrifice to Himself as God; so God would have to become a man so that He could offer a sacrifice on behalf of man, as a man.
He would do this by sending the Second Person of the Trinity (what we call "God the Son", or the Person of Jesus) to earth to be born of a woman and live amongst us. He would do what the first man could not - namely, submit to the will of God the Father in perfect obedience.
The perfect obedience of Christ - even to the point of a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father...
why was he pleased if he planned the whole thing and knew it was going to happen?
He easily amuses himself?
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...that it was meritorious enough to win reconciliation and salvation for the whole human race. Christ's perfect obedience and submission was infinitely more pleasing to God than all of mankind's sins combined were displeasing. The reward won by Christ is infinite, sufficient to be distributed to anyone who lays claim to it.
At last, man had offered a sacrifice to God that was worthy of God - God's own Son.
but it was all gods doing and not man's doing at all. Man had nothing to do with it if god planned it.
Except for Jesus as man, but Jesus IS god and apparently sacrificed himself as you said earlier.
So I still ask, what possible connection does this have with future sinning?
You are making a valiant attempt but you haven't explained the point of it as related to sinning.
Everyone on earth sins left right and center? Am I correct?
So what exactly did the crucifixion achieve? It didn't stop anybody sinning. So what did it achieve?
if it gave 'reconciliation and salvation for the whole human race' then that should have been the end of it.
But people still need apparent 'saving'. So what was the point of it?
In the beginning, God created the first man and placed him in paradise, giving him everything he needed to flourish and be happy, including a woman to be his wife. This first man walked and talked with God in perfect fellowship and communion.
God gave this man one simple instruction. There was just one particular tree from which he was not permitted to eat of its fruit. Everything else in the entire world belonged to the man to do with as he pleased. God even warned the man that if he ate the fruit from that tree, that he would die.
The man disobeyed God and ate the fruit, rejecting the life of God (what we call "grace") and severing the communion between man and God. Man brought death into the world when he rejected God's life.
Throughout the ages, a part of mankind has tried to repair the relationship with God by atoning for his wrong and offering sacrifices. But since man is finite and God is infinite, mankind could not possibly offer a sacrifice worthy of the Goodness and Majesty of God.
God saw our dilemma, and because He cares about us He offered a solution. Since the only thing worthy of God is God Himself, God would Himself become the sacrifice that He would offer up to God on man's behalf. It would be of no use to man if God were to offer a sacrifice to Himself as God; so God would have to become a man so that He could offer a sacrifice on behalf of man, as a man.
He would do this by sending the Second Person of the Trinity (what we call "God the Son", or the Person of Jesus) to earth to be born of a woman and live amongst us. He would do what the first man could not - namely, submit to the will of God the Father in perfect obedience.
The perfect obedience of Christ - even to the point of a horrific death on a cross - was such a pleasing act to God the Father, that it was meritorious enough to win reconciliation and salvation for the whole human race. Christ's perfect obedience and submission was infinitely more pleasing to God than all of mankind's sins combined were displeasing. The reward won by Christ is infinite, sufficient to be distributed to anyone who lays claim to it.
At last, man had offered a sacrifice to God that was worthy of God - God's own Son.
And all God had to do was just say, "I forgive you" and there would have been no need for all this other rigamarole of God having to send his son to die for us. Everything you have just said, Mike was invented by some idiot named Anselm of Canterbury. He invented this "satisfaction theory of redemption" nonsense that Catholics buy into.
Why? It's pretty evident, isn't it?
Without mixing the idea of Jesus becoming a man and dying for our sins into the equation there would have been no need for the Catholic Church to exist because the RCC's whole justification for existence is wholly dependent on Jesus being front and center of your religion and the Catholic clergy being Jesus' ambassadors for him on earth. Without Jesus the RCC doesn't have an institution, and without an institution all those popes and cardinals and bishops who loved living high on the gravy train of lavish palaces, good food and everybody kneeling and kissing their rings--they would have been left destitute on the streets without any means of earning an honest living. The Jesus avatar they pushed assured them all pretty cushy jobs for life. That's why privately they didn't believe in Jesus any more than atheists did, but publicly they burned anyone who even whispered Jesus was a fraud.
Which apparently was inevitable. Jesus IS god carrying out a plan that he himself devised, correct?
So why pleased if it was absolutely 100% going to happen?
A question the Christians haven't got an answer for.
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