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Yes, for personal and professional reasonings. The U.S. is based on capitalism and freedom of religion. Could you imagine telling any client how stupid you find their belief system?
Yes, for personal and professional reasonings. The U.S. is based on capitalism and freedom of religion. Could you imagine telling any client how stupid you find their belief system?
i would like to be in the room where that happens.
One of the main goals of being religious or spiritual is to improve or keep good character. But to improve one's character, you need to have some sort of a definition or measuring stick of what is good character.
So what is good character? I am sure that we might all define it in different ways. I came across this LINK from a Ted Gioia that defines 8 ways for evaluating character:
1. Look at who they are married to.
2. See how they treat service workers.
3. What experiences formed their early life.
4. How do they invest in their two most valuable resources.
5. What irritates them, as this likely is something that they have in themselves.
6. Can they listen?
7. If they cheat at small things, they cheat at big things.
8. Watch how they handle unexpected problems.
I actually do really well under this scoring system. I think I only fail at #8 because of anxiety attacks that I sometimes get in some situations. I think I get A+ for #s 1 (I love you hubby!), 2, 4, 6, and 7. I think #2, #4, #6, and #7 are the best points he has.
How do you all measure character?
I think it can be as simple as:
1) Do you have love in your heart and actions?
2) Do you seek to serve others through those loving actions?
3) Do you listen, for an enemy is merely someone's story you have refused to hear.
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is not another commandment greater than these." -Jesus in Mark 12:31
Too many assumptions.
For instance - the person they married may change over the years. If you look at who they married right now, you're only getting one small snapshot of their entire lives together. Holding one spouse responsible for the actions of the other is a bit ... unjust let alone unfair. Besides, the spouse may have been a completely different person when they married. In fact A LOT of people seem to change once those vows are exchanged - especially spouses that are abusive. So that's a bad indicator of someone's character.
How they treat service workers? That's not exactly good either - I'd be more inclined to know how they treat animals. People are too widely varied. Service workers can be wankers like everyone else. There's no law that says you have to treat bad service workers well.
How are you going to know what experiences shaped their early life? I mean - usually when two friends get to know each other well enough to start exchanging stories about their childhood, they would already have a pretty good idea of what kind of character each other has. And I would be a little uncomfortable if I applied for a job and the interviewer started asking me about what I did in grammar school and how I got along with my parents, et. al.
What does investing have to do with good moral character? Maybe to some fat cat Wall Street boss that would be important. But unless someone is investing in sweatshops or puppy mills, who gives a damn? Not having a head for business does not make one a bad person.
No, what irritates them does NOT mean they have those flaws themselves. That's a lousy assumption. Gee, it could be the reason why something irritates them is because they DON'T have that flaw. I get irritated with hypocrisy - and granted 99% of the people I used to post with on this forum are now gone, but I'd defy anyone to show me where I am a hypocrite. Lying, deceit, dishonesty of all kinds irks the hell out of me - and if nothing else I've been nothing but honest since the day I joined. Probably too honest because I'm not afraid to speak my mind - and if you don't like my opinions, bugger off, as far as I'm concerned.
Does that mean, then, that I'm a liar, a hypocrite, that I'm deceitful, and all the rest? Of course not. It means I actually have a few ounces of morality. Not everything has to be a reflection on you - and to say that when someone is irritated by bad behavior you also must engage in that bad behavior - well then, the only way you could be construed as "innocent" is if you DO NOTHING about bad behavior. It's like one of those old fashioned witch tests - yeah, throw the woman in the water. If she doesn't drown, stone her to death as a witch! With an assessment like that, you couldn't win for losing.
Can they listen? Okay. That's the first one that I can agree with. Within reason. But everyone has their limits - I couldn't listen for an hour as someone drones on and on about insurance actuary tables, could you? But yes, someone who will actually hear what you're saying - and doesn't just use the time when you're talking to think of what they're going to say next.
But in this day and age, maybe the most important thing to ask is: CAN THEY READ! Oh right - to give someone your attention long enough to read what they're writing is the modern day equivalent of listening, right? Since so much communication now revolves around texting and *ahem* writing on forums. Just like I'm sure more than half the people will skip my post because I'm the Wicked Witch of the R&S. If you write anything longer than a Tweet these days, it's TL;DR!!!
Imagine if you wanted to talk to me about something and I pulled out a stopwatch and said, "Okay, you have 15 seconds ... go!" How would you feel? Because for those who dismiss longer posts and insisting that they should be no longer than 3 or 4 lines is doing exactly that. Assuming people read at around the same speed if not faster than most people speak - it doesn't take any more time to read this post than it would if I read it to you. Something to think about, hmm?
Cheating on small things does NOT mean they cheat on bigger things. That's one of those assumptions that fall under "Slippery Slope fallacy" though it should make the fundegelicals who don't like gays happy. Because that's the same argument as: "Well, if we allow gays to marry, next thing you know, people will be marrying their dog!" Yeah, we've all heard that one. No, you CANNOT assume that a little transgression means they'll commit bigger ones. You may as well say, "Well that person stole a candy bar. Next thing you know, he'll be shooting up a mall with an AR-15!" Or perhaps, "Hey, I saw him move his Monopoly piece ahead one square just to avoid going to jail! I bet he's cheating on his wife!"
No. Just because you cheat on small things doesn't mean you cheat on bigger things. Again there are too many moving parts. If you could cheat a little to stop your house from going into foreclosure and your family sleeping in your car - would you? It's a bit like the moral delimma of the starving man stealing bread to feed his starving family. Where do you draw the line? Because I doubt - I truly doubt - that everyone here, much less everyone out in the world, has been 100% honest in everything they've ever done (and I'm not talking about those little lies you probably told when you were a child).
Watch how they handle unexpected problems? I really don't see that as a good assessment of character. What exactly are you looking for? Does he get angry at unexpected problems? So what? That doesn't make a person of bad moral character. A little hot under the collar maybe, but it's not a reflection of his morality. And like for so many of these - how long is this assessment going on for? Because you'd have to be hanging around someone for quite awhile for a number of these things to ever be relevant.
You can't see how a person reacts to one unexpected problem - because there's no telling what other stressers are at play. Everyone has their breaking point. You'd have to see how they react to a lot of unexpected problems to see how consistent their behavior is - and unless you're hanging around someone rather frequently, that isn't liable to happen. Which then begs the question - by the time you get to the point where you're hanging around someone day after day to see their reaction to things - wouldn't you and this other person already be friends?!? At least on some level? Because you would have to be close enough to this person to really **know** him rather than to make flippant assumptions about a person's character based on a lot of superficial evidence.
How do you all measure character?
How do I measure character? I take everyone individually - case by case. Because everyone is different. Everyone's lives are different. Everyone has a different story to tell. I don't use these "one size fits all" assessments and these "lets stuff everyone into the same box" questionaires.
How they treat service workers? That's not exactly good either - I'd be more inclined to know how they treat animals. People are too widely varied. Service workers can be wankers like everyone else. There's no law that says you have to treat bad service workers well.
Skip away!
There is a neighborhood cat, we call her "meowy" she lives part time on our back porch and occasionally ventures inside , although she does not stay long. She seems to be happier as an outdoor cat. I think she is used to people, because she does let us touch and pet her, but not hold her. We pay for her cat food, which is keep out on the back porch so that she can eat when she is hungry. She sleeps on the chair, which is now covered in black cat fur but no big deal, that chair was old and needs a good cleaning anyway.
I am setting up with a local organization to cage her and take her in to be fixed. The cycles of heat, the howling, the risk of kittens that would basically be feral, all add up to doing her and us a favor. I will pay for that. Of course, she will have to stay inside afterwards until she heals, and if she adjusts to being an indoor cat, that is ok too. For now, we pay for food, if she needed vet care would probably fund that too. (I hope she does not get too mad next weekend when we go to the free cat-shot clinic)
St Francis was not the only person to see the sacred nature of animals. And I agree, character does measure in regards to the treatment of animals.
I noticed too your comment on service workers. Yes, there are ar$eh0le$ in every business, from fast food to religion. That is human nature. I think that the reference perhaps...maybe..that some people made in regards to service workers was to treat them as being lower class, or somehow beneath (subservient?) to oneself. After all, they make minimum wage, and we make $$$ so what financial benefit could we gain from them? Second, most are high school grads or college students at best, while we all have graduate degrees, so what possible information could we learn from them?
But my take is that as far as I know, I do not know their situation in life, unless they explicitly invite me to have that knowledge. They are after all human beings, and if I provide for a four legged creature who sleeps most of the day on my back porch, would I not treat a fellow human with respect as well? I do not walk into any situation to engage any worker with lack of dignity or respect, and I always strive to be polite. If they are not, well, I can finish my business and not return. And tell everyone else I know not to return there as well.
It is the same though as attending a fungelical church..I will not step foot into because I have met too many negative and hateful people there. Sure, there might be nice and loving people there, but my experiences have shown otherwise and the odds of encountering hateful or abusive people Self hating and self loathing people, who, at the core of their existence, believe that they are so flawed and so sinful that they do not even have the self esteem to even begin to empower themselves from within to make positive changes....needing to credit gods and demons for everything that happens with and to them....
Why would I want to be in a situation like that? Why would I want to spend time with people like that? better to walk away and ignore them. Same as eating in a restaurant where I become ill every time I eat there. Best to warn everyone of what is inside and report my experiences to warn others and then just stay away.
Same if I get bad service or a bad attitude from a service person....rather than be abusive back to them, better to fire them or just walk away, depending on the situation.
But, my experience has been that in most situations starting off with respect and kindness most of the time gets the same returned. Not always, but the best advice there is just shake the dust off your sandals and walk away. Those people do not deserve your time or business anyway.
There is a neighborhood cat, we call her "meowy" she lives part time on our back porch and occasionally ventures inside , although she does not stay long. She seems to be happier as an outdoor cat. I think she is used to people, because she does let us touch and pet her, but not hold her. We pay for her cat food, which is keep out on the back porch so that she can eat when she is hungry. She sleeps on the chair, which is now covered in black cat fur but no big deal, that chair was old and needs a good cleaning anyway.
I am setting up with a local organization to cage her and take her in to be fixed. The cycles of heat, the howling, the risk of kittens that would basically be feral, all add up to doing her and us a favor. I will pay for that. Of course, she will have to stay inside afterwards until she heals, and if she adjusts to being an indoor cat, that is ok too. For now, we pay for food, if she needed vet care would probably fund that too. (I hope she does not get too mad next weekend when we go to the free cat-shot clinic)
Awww ... you're practically a saint for doing all of that, and paying for it all, too. Yeah, getting her fixed is definitely a top priority or else you'll end up with an entire cat colony to deal with!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
I noticed too your comment on service workers. Yes, there are ar$eh0le$ in every business, from fast food to religion. That is human nature. I think that the reference perhaps...maybe..that some people made in regards to service workers was to treat them as being lower class, or somehow beneath (subservient?) to oneself. After all, they make minimum wage, and we make $$$ so what financial benefit could we gain from them?
Ah yes, that I agree with wholeheartedly. Like, even when I'm pissed to high heaven over something, if I have to call someone about it, I always tell the person who answers that I'm not mad at them, I know it's not their fault - and we usually have a good laugh about it. I know they can't say anything bad about whomever they're answering phones for, but there's usually an amusing understanding (unless there's a language barrier - I love it when I get people from India so I try practicing my Hindi that I haven't used in years - surprises the hell out of them.) But yes, people shouldn't snub their noses at low-income or service workers - because where would those "rich snobs" be if those employees weren't there doing their jobs? Some of those people work their arses off for poverty level wages and they all have bad days, too. You can't be Mr. or Ms. Smiley all the time so I tend to give these people a lot of leeway - not that I'm any wealthier than they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
Second, most are high school grads or college students at best, while we all have graduate degrees, so what possible information could we learn from them?
I've been where they are. And while I can't speak for them, I know, as for me, I hated it. Hate, hate, hated it. To be honest, I just don't do well with the general public. I used to work for Verizon as a directory assistance operator and I used to get all kinds of crackpot characters calling me - from kids pulling pranks to people screaming and swearing at me to someone who thought I could get rid of the government satellites hovering over their house to someone who didn't understand that "United States" and "America" were the same thing and kept insisting that I search the database under "America." Yeah, I could tell you a lot of stories about that job.
But anyway, yeah, people who are working their way through school should be commended, not denigrated. And it doesn't provide younger people with a strong work ethic if they think this is what they'll have to deal with during their career. I've always said that employers who hire kids holding their first job should really make working for them - well maybe not "enjoyable" per se since work is rarely "fun" - but don't make it a place to dread. Why? Because this is going to be these kids' first impressions about work life. And if bosses, managers and customers hate on them, then they're not going to want to work. Simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
But my take is that as far as I know, I do not know their situation in life, unless they explicitly invite me to have that knowledge. They are after all human beings, and if I provide for a four legged creature who sleeps most of the day on my back porch, would I not treat a fellow human with respect as well? I do not walk into any situation to engage any worker with lack of dignity or respect, and I always strive to be polite. If they are not, well, I can finish my business and not return. And tell everyone else I know not to return there as well.
Yeah - I think this is really the crux of it all. If a person can treat a stray cat with so much kindness, then more times than not, they would do the same for a person - especially one in need of help. I know there are exceptions, but oh well - it's still better to assume the best in a person rather than the worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
Same if I get bad service or a bad attitude from a service person....rather than be abusive back to them, better to fire them or just walk away, depending on the situation.
All I'll say here is that - I suppose it depends on what one considers "abuse." I've rarely encountered anyone working these jobs whose behavior was so egregious that I would actually say anything to let alone be abusive. What's interesting for me, anyway, is that most of the bad behavior I've experienced came from actual professionals rather than service workers. Like, for instance, I had to "fire" my dentist because he was such a rude and obnoxious boor - far worse than any service worker I've met. Whenever I've encountered a service worker that seemed off his game, I'd say, "Cheer up, you only have X amount of hours before you go home!" That quite often gets at least a smile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
But, my experience has been that in most situations starting off with respect and kindness most of the time gets the same returned. Not always, but the best advice there is just shake the dust off your sandals and walk away. Those people do not deserve your time or business anyway.
Unfortunately I live in a really bad area of the USA - bad as in: it's economically depressed with high poverty rates and one of the lousiest climates imaginable - at least for America. For instance, you can look this up in any almanac or perhaps google - but this region of Pennsylvania only receives on average 72 sunny days per year. Considering there are 365 days in a year, that means we have almost 300 days when it's cloudy. In the winter, it's not unusual to go 2 or even 3 months without ever seeing the sun. It's like perpetual twilight - like living in a city in northern Norway or Sweden. My doctor told me that a person could sit in the sun every sunny day and not get enough sunlight to replenish your vitamin D (I think?) ... so yeah, what this does is it puts everyone in a surly mood. Especially when it's May and there's no sign of spring - and it's been snowing since late October. I give people a little leeway knowing that - people get crabby. I get crabby. You get sick of living in a world that's white, brown, and grey. A lifeless world with no plants or flowers or birds or even a smell - when it's still 20 degrees out and it's May 10th. Uggh! So yeah. Just have to roll with it sometimes.
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