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I wanted to say something else but I didn't want to keep editing my post...
I believe prayer helps people get their minds in a place to help others. I think we can best do that by connecting with God...or our highest selves, whatever your belief is.
People say (and I was always fond of saying in the past), "if God hears prayers then how are there so many starving children in the world?"
What if He hears those prayers and that's why so many people, and groups, and nations send in food?
It's always this "if God heard prayers and answered then things would be perfect." I'm not sure about that. I think things could be worse than they are in so many ways. So very, very, very, very much worse.
I say this as someone who has suffered terribly, in fact who was purposefully drowned as a preschooler for misbehaving...and worse. (Because death is not worse than other things that came later.) So I'm not being lighthearted and flippant.
I really do believe God wants to help, but he wants US to want to help. I think the way He hears prayers is by trying to help us open up to seeing solutions, and trying ot help us to open up to wanting to lift other people up. I don't think He can just start curing this, that and the other because He couldn't do for a few what he would then decide not to do for others. I mean if you had, say, six billion kids, LOL, and you only fed some of them because you liked those more...what would you be? Not a good person. And definitely not anybody holy.
Just my random thoughts. I don't have all the answers. And at this point in my life I finally feel like it's okay not to have all the answers. Maybe we here who question and discuss have a mission to discover, not teach. Just a thought.
There is what prayer means to any one individual of course, but then there is the fact that prayer can mean any number of different things depending on the individual who believes in prayer. I am quite sure prayer helps a lot of people who pray. In fact I know it does. Whether for the reasons they think it does, or not, doesn't really matter as much as how it makes a person feel. This too is just human nature. Also doesn't really matter if there is a god involved or not.
And this is why it should be evident that prayer doesn't work. It never has. Ostensibly, it never will. Just because you keep believing doesn't mean prayer works or God exists. So, to extend the gambling metaphor a bit further - it is very much akin to playing roulette or any game of chance. It doesn't matter what you bet on, that number will eventually come up. But it was still just random chance. There were no extraordinary powers of prescience exhibited and certainly not the hand of a divine being.In the same way, you can keep on praying, but I'm betting that most prayers are not answered. Keep in mind, I'm not counting prayers that were likely to come true anyway - like "God please get me and my family home safely" and other prayers that ask for the status quo to be maintained - which most likely would happened anyway - with or without prayer. But sure, if you keep praying and praying and praying, sooner or later, the law of averages or statistical probability will have a prayer or two being answered. And again there is no evidence or reason to believe in some purpose being demonstrated, no "divine happenstance" being displayed. Just luck. I've always found this response to be vaguely insulting. It's essentially saying that when we atheists come to that point in life when we realize just how illogical and nonsensical these crazy stories are, well, it's because we're doing it wrong. Yes, it must be because we didn't have the "right kind of faith!"If we were worshiping correctly, well ... then we wouldn't need logic. We could keep believing in these absolutely insane stories that, if not due to enculturation and a bit of brainwashing, no one would believe.I don't know if you're a Christian or not - I don't really know you as a poster - but I'll assume you are. Maybe you can try this thought experiment. Imagine you lived on some remote island somewhere within a society that had never heard of any of the world's religions. So when you arrived in the United States one day, no doubt religious proselytizers swarmed your house wanting desperately to tell you the Good News!! Curious what this news was - maybe you won the lottery or something - you opened the door. And that's when these people told you this whopper:"An all-powerful God who can literally do anything, the same God who created the entire universe, just up and decided one day on some random occasion to forgive humanity for its original sin. What sin was that? you wonder. Ahh, but since this God decided to make a big production out of this forgiveness, this God stuck a fetus into a married virgin without her permission thus committing adultery and rape all in one action - but yeah, never mind that.""Anyway, so this God essentially possessed this baby named Jesus. And this baby only had one purpose: to be sacrificed to ... well ... to this God. Which, yes means he's sacrificing himself to himself in order to forgive humanity of this egregious sin. So what WAS this egregious sin?""Well... see ... God had to sacrifice himself to himself to loophole a curse he himself created on humanity because thousands of years ago a woman made from a rib was bamboozled by a talking snake to eat a forbidden fruit picked from a magical tree!""And so yeah, YOU should be thankful that God gave himself - I mean - his only son to forgive YOU for that horrible sin that's all YOUR fault! All you have to do is believe without any evidence that all of this really happened and accept Jesus as your lord and savior! Oh and you have to love him, too. With all your heart. Even though the world is EXACTLY the same after the crucifixion as it was before, you're supposed to believe that you are now forgiven! Never mind that all the punishments are still firmly in place: It still hurts to give birth, still have to farm for food, people still die, there's still sin, and even the damn snakes didn't get their feet back. But believe in it anyway!""And never mind the real reason why Jesus was crucified - because he started a religious cult that ran afoul of Roman law. It had NOTHING to do with forgiveness. All of that was added post hoc some decades after the actual event. But yeah, forget about that. Just believe. Forget about logic, history, and facts. No, no, just believe! So can I sign you up?"Now, seriously, if you heard a story like that, would you rush to the nearest church and convert? Or would you be subtly pushing this crazy cultist out of your house then slamming the door shut? I know preachers and priests don't tell the story in those kinds of words - but that IS the story. Christianity is based entirely around that story - and it's utterly absurd! This is one of the tragedies of religion - it's like pareidolia only instead of seeing faces and images in mundane objects where no faces exist, it's seeing God in mundane events in life where no god exists.So let me give you a tidbit from my life:You always hear about "blessed" families - individuals or families that have it all. They may not be fabulously wealthy - but they're comfortable and relatively free from worry. But if that's true, then Newton's Third Law of Motion applies: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If there are blessed or lucky people in this world, then there must be cursed or unlucky people. Would that not be a logical conclusion? Please say yes.Because I am one of those cursed individuals. Nothing has gone well for me since my earliest memories - and I'm not talking about lottery tickets. Hell, I wasn't even a planned child - just a big oops. So I started life rather inauspiciously. The only reason I wasn't put up for adoption was my father used me as insurance against being drafted (not that there was a draft at the time, mind you.) My mother lived in poverty in India - my earliest memories were fights and an ugly, mean divorce.And it went from there. Oh yeah, a pebble rolling down a mountainside ... In my late teens - when I found myself bereft of family - guess what I did? YUP! I gave myself to Christ. I ended up joining a megachurch out in Chicago, I got baptized, I actually lived with one of the preachers to avoid homelessness for several months until I could support myself. Oh, but I prayed. And I prayed. And I prayed. I never prayed to win the lottery. I know this sounds corny - but that was my mind at 19 years old: I prayed for love. Never really got it. Still haven't. Nice that some people's prayers for a winning lottery ticket get answered - while the prayers of a scared girl in Chicago who only wanted someone to love her ... never were. No, instead of finding love, I'm instead afflicted with an extremely painful neurological disease that limited my mobility ... gee, thanks, God. Appreciate it.But that's just one of many reasons why I don't believe in Christ, God, prayers, or any of that. See, I don't blame God for the unmitigated disaster that has been my life. Not at all. Why blame someone I don't believe existsHowever, it has made life easier in this sense: If I were to believe God/Christ really existed, then I would have no choice than to believe that God/Christ stood passively by, arms folded in complete apathy, as I prayed my heart out and received nothing but silence in return. I would have to believe that there is an intelligence behind my misery, an intent behind my depression. It was all being done on purpose by an uncaring or incompetent god - and it has to be one of the two. Uncaring or incompetent. Refuses to help or cannot help. I realized - wait a minute - just WHO am I talking to? Yeah ...But knowing there is no Yahweh/Jehovah/Christ frees me from the possibility that I'm being used by God in some sick prank - and if you believe in the Bible, then read about Job. What an atrocious story - just goes to show you that God is not a benign being at all even IF he did exist. God didn't even have the decency to apologize to Job and bring back his ORIGINAL family who were murdered for the sake of a stupid bet. No, instead he thundered around about, "Where were YOU when I created the heavens!" and all the "How dare you question me" crap. Really? Seriously? And this by you is how a good person behaves? No thanks. I'll pass.Anyway, it means I don't have to lay in a bed wracked with pain shaking my fist at God for doing this to me, to count my curses and hurl them all at Christ asking, "Where were YOU when I prayed only for love?" He was never there to begin with - and to know I just got dealt a crappy hand in life rather than being deliberately made to suffer both physically and emotionally for the amusement of some faceless, anonymous, invisible god is much, much, much easier to deal with. And it makes more sense.Alright then ... if it wasn't a coincidence, then tell me, why were none of my prayers answered? Hmm? Literally EVERY fear I've ever had either has come true - or will before I die. As for all the wants, hopes, and dreams I had for life, not only did they not come true, I was given the diametric opposite.And don't EVEN come back here and tell me my faith wasn't strong enough or some other infuriating nonsense - because you have no idea ...Well then... aren't you just f-ing special. The selfish hubris never ceases to amaze me.
Why not put forward some of your so-called "miracles" and let us be the judge of whether they even count as such. Lord knows, there have been loads of people on this forum trying to pass off trivial nonsense as "the hand of providence."Wait ... what? Are you serious here? Are you REALLY going to offer up that rationalization as an argument? Yeah, let's just kick the idea of suffering under the bed where no one will notice ...Heh, pick an easier question to answer. It's all rooted in human psychology. The human mind has a very difficult time accepting randomness. That's why a lot of people will say things like, "Everything happens for a reason" and why people often cannot handle random events. A good example is when, say, that straight-A student and captain of the football team on the fast track to harvard gets taken out by some drunk with his 5th DUI - who gets out of his car without a scratch. Oh my god! That will scramble a person's brain - people cannot handle the idea of "wrong place, wrong time." No, there had to be a REASON for it.And so you hear all of those quaint expressions like, "Heaven was short heroes so God took your son" and stuff that just makes my skin crawl. No one can accept that a life was wasted and for no good reason. No parent wants to hear that, do they. You can see where this is going - I shouldn't have to belabor this any further.It's the same for the supposed "order" in the universe. It has been proven over and over and over and over and over that there doesn't have to be a deity for said order to exist. But again, people just can't wrap their minds around that and would rather revert to the primitive and the superstitious. It's a lot easier to understand, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth" than it is to understand a room full of scientific textbooks.The SOME reason is merely because proponents of both sides would have to finally admit to something they do not believe. Just because they ask the same questions does NOT mean there is any guarantee they will arrive at the same answers. In terms of atheists and Christians - they are polar opposites and therefore could never arrive at the same answer to the big questions. All that could theoretically happen is to learn how to coexist. Except that'll never happen because Christians are given a mandate by God to proselytize and push, push, push. Both Christianity and Islam will never be happy until one side or the other has conquered the world.Because humans are not computers. Simple as that. If we all lived your life we'd all be just like you. But we did not, therefore, we are not. This idea that having the same information should therefore result in the same conclusion is ... it's ... I'll be honest ... I'm flummoxed why this is so hard for you to understand. You're essentially ignoring that which makes us all human to begin with, reducing us all to a machine that will invariably come to the exact same answer given the exact same information. There is no solution of which I could ever conceive. As I said elsewhere, I can and never will, accept a god who monstrously murdered 42 children for calling Elijiah "old baldhead." Nor can I ever accept a religion who teaches its adherents that 2/3rds of the world's population should not only be tortured forever - but deserves to be. No thanks. There is no "good" to be found there. It's just a shame so few can see that.
many people though find prayer does help.
and no, that is not "insane" and no that is not "brainwashing" "cult" or "nonsense." it is not "selfish" nor is it "hubris."
it is simply a different experience.
what comes to mind when i read what is expressed in the post above, is seeing how pain can lead to bitterness and lashing out.
and a whole lot of upset about and towards and over something which they claim does not exist.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-17-2023 at 10:08 AM..
Say you have 1000 people praying for Russia to win.
Say you have 1001 people praying for UK to win.
Say you have 5 people with huge wisdom, grace, knowledge of the Nature of Reality, connection to God/the Creative Great Divine Mind or Spirit, say,
after decades of 10 hour days of deep meditation, fasting and so on...
yogis, swamis, saints, masters, monks.
Which would influence the outcome?
My bet would be on the 5.
Something like 86% died that were within same distance as the priests were.
Yes, certainly other factors might contribute to the outcome, like if God had further plans for these priests.
And we can never know how many of the additional survivors had been actively involved in the prayer and mission of those priests that were there!
It was Japan. Most people in Japan at the time hated Westerners and Western society. They were Shinto, not Christians. Even today, only 1.5% of Japanese are Christian and 70.5% are Shinto.
Given that, how many of the bomb survivors do YOU think were Christian, hmm?
I know where you want to go with this, but I'm here to tell you, it's a dead end. After all, there were more Shinto survivors than Christian, so should we assume, then, that Shintoism is the One, True Religion?
Several hundred thousand people survived the same bomb, and they probably weren't Catholic. And what did they pray for? Don't kill us if the US bombs us?
Sorry, but this to me is on the same level as people telling me after 9/11 to thank God for sparing me. 2,753 people died at the WTC. Approximately 15,000 of us got out alive. It was simply first a matter of where you were, and secondly a matter of what decisions you made.
And as we know, there were people of all religions, or no religion, in both groups.
This is why I just don't believe we can pray for material things. (Again, material meaning earthly; not any negative connotatons.) God isn't going to just answer one person's prayer for finding car keys but not answer some child's prayer that her mother doesn't die. You know?
And there's the Bruce Almighty problem (if anyone has seen that) where if we ALL got what we wanted, the world would be literal chaos...considering the fact that people pray for opposite things, or - sometimes even worse - competing for the same thing. And again we get back to: God would have to choose some but not all prayers to answer and how would He decide that? Somebody prayed "better"? So some little kid in Africa who doesn't say the correct prayer doesn't eat but some coddled Westerner who went through all the right rituals at the pretty church does?
I feel like prayer is to connect us to God so we can find our best choices given the situation. That isn't a copout, that's really how I feel. There is no other logical or empathetic answer. Can prayer help in this way - yes, I believe it absolutely can. But again, that is within a given situation. So in other words, we are *still meant to live our lives* even though we pray; prayer isn't supposed to "do" our lives for us.
And sometimes we can't know that prayer did work...for example, I may pray for good health, but the doctor finds a cancerous mole and removes it. I might think that's a total fail but what if that if my prayer got me to the doctor before it could get worse? Or...what if I was going to get hit with a bus that day but I lived longer...I mean...prayer is probably literally impossible to quantify.
This is just my opinion. I know people who have prayed for specific things and those things happened.
many people though find prayer does help.
and no, that is not "insane" and no that is not "brainwashing" "cult" or "nonsense." it is not "selfish" nor is it "hubris."
it is simply a different experience.
what comes to mind when i read what is expressed in the post above, is seeing how pain can lead to bitterness and lashing out.
and a whole lot of upset about and towards and over something which they claim does not exist.
When someone dances around saying God singled them out for all of these miracles when others received literally nothing - yeah - it's hubris to think so.
It's a lot like some wealthy kid running to the Projects to show off all of his snazy new toys to all the poor kids.
And yes, it is "cult" and "brainwashing." It's actually in the Bible, but no one wants to hear about that.
Look, I don't like you. You don't like me. So do us both a favor and steer clear of me. I'll do the same to you. You're not worth my time.
I'm also tired of your armchair psychology always trying to analyze my emotional state as "upset." Plus, I already said I don't blame God for what became of my life. I was explaining how the lack of belief makes it a lot easier to accept things as they are. But no, you don't want anyone to be critical of religion. No, that can't happen, so it's just bitterness. Even so, you have all the warmth of a rattlesnake - which is funny because - it's been so often my experience that those who scream the loudest about Christianity and pretend to be all smiles and light end up becoming the nastiest most uncaring and sociopathic people I don't care to meet. Welcome to the club.
It was Japan. Most people in Japan at the time hated Westerners and Western society. They were Shinto, not Christians. Even today, only 1.5% of Japanese are Christian and 70.5% are Shinto.
Given that, how many of the bomb survivors do YOU think were Christian, hmm?
I know where you want to go with this, but I'm here to tell you, it's a dead end. After all, there were more Shinto survivors than Christian, so should we assume, then, that Shintoism is the One, True Religion?
Yes, it was a miracle alone that these Jesuit Priests were even there at all, and didn't get killed by the people/government, let alone the A-Bomb!
Great Point!
many people though find prayer does help. and no, that is not "insane" and no that is not "brainwashing" "cult" or "nonsense." it is not "selfish" nor is it "hubris."
True. Even if prayer has no connection to a divine source, there's plenty of evidence that it can help a person. Maybe it's just a calming of the mind that might not be achieved in any other way/approach. A sense of connection with something grander, and/or tying us all together. That's more than sufficient to justify it.
There can be an aspect of worship or reverence, but also an anticipation of improvement. And maybe the reverence part ends up connecting with something within; a way for the mind to see it doing something positive and beneficial.
As I've said before, some want to pick apart everything, even things that should be left open for more information (even perpetually, because there may be no stopping point for incoming information or sensing). Some matters don't work on the same principles of material and tangible daily life. We could dissect a flower to get its "anatomy", but in the process lose the simple beauty and art of what it is and how it appears. I'll do the first, but also the second.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 02-17-2023 at 10:52 AM..
Thanks. Even as a Christian, I've grappled with same question. Let's see if we can figure it out!
Great. Let's do...
My summation wasn't/isn't about "religious training." It's more about how human nature works. Obvious as can be far as I'm concerned, and confirmed by way of many studies I mentioned. "Objectively. There have been many tests that prove how our preconditioning affect our mental processes this way." Perhaps you are referring to someone who is not predisposed toward a belief in a god and then becomes a believer? That's a bit of a different story compared to someone who already believes in prayer. That's who I was referring to.
As for others you seem to have in mind, I/we would need the specifics about what those people were predisposed to believe or what those circumstances might be, before I/we can better consider that dynamic. If you care to elaborate, perhaps we can consider those examples too. Meanwhile, back to making out what is coincidence and/or what is the result of prayer.
You live in Vegas, and you've gambled before. (So you're a sinner like me). You also say you have asked for God's assistance and apparently no matter the outcome, you didn't stop believing [in] Him. Isn't this exactly the nature of what I summed up before? If someone who prays doesn't evaluate what the results turn out to be, then nuff said. That's my point. A case of confirmation bias in the extreme. Such that whatever happens, mentally we reconcile whatever happens to fit our preconditioning.
This is not the sort of mental process we typically apply in life however. For example, if you were in serious pain as a result of a serious ailment, and if a doctor prescribed a pill to help you with the pain, and if the pain persisted even after taking the pills as prescribed, would you believe in the pills anyway? Or if the pills made you feel better sometimes and bad or worse other times? Of course not. Indeed, do we take pills or do anything without serious consideration for the "side effects?" Do we only consider the good and dismiss the bad? That's the difference between objective rational evaluation of cause/effect versus extreme predisposition to believe whatever you prefer regardless of results or outcome. That's the "magic" of prayer. We enjoy the good and dismiss the rest. That's the how and why it works so well for so many people. None of which proves or even suggests the existence of a god however. No god need be involved for prayer to work.
This is what I've eventually figured out anyway...
You say sometimes you have figured out WHY He didn't come through, but why bother when no matter what happens you believe him to be there? In your opinion, does it make any difference whether you figure out the WHY when what you are actually explaining here is that no matter what happens, the results don't make a difference to your way of thinking? Again, I understand this as the typical religious predisposition, but this is not what all of us do generally speaking when it comes to making sense of what goes on around us. Usually, when the results actually matter to us, most discerning adults want to know what works, what doesn't, and WHY. We don't believe one thing or another regardless the results or without understanding why. Imagine in the case of something having to do with your child for example. The well-being or safety of your child. What works or doesn't and why MATTERS, and MATTERS A LOT.
Thanks for your tid bit about your life, and believe me I get it, but it seems you don't realize you are describing exactly the same thing I've been trying to explain here. You believe your bad or good luck has to do with believing or not believe in a god. I had some serious bad luck a good many years ago. I mean serious bad luck. If we want to call it luck. Very unfortunate circumstances in any case, and clinical depression to boot. I was an atheist then.
Since then, I feel I've been blessed with some incredible good fortune. Such that I always say (and believe) I am luckier or better off than I deserve. I am certainly better off than the great majority of people on the planet, and I'm enjoying life in such a way now that I lack of nothing. Nothing that really matters to me anyway. Once clinically depressed, I am now a very happy man. I'm also still an atheist, and I have been all through these years of significant ups and downs.
What to conclude? You believe your story is because of a god. What do you make of my story? I ask, but I strongly suspect you will dismiss my story in the same way any evidence contrary to your beliefs will either be dismissed or similarly "reconciled" to fit what you prefer to believe. Regardless all facts, evidence and story to the contrary. I'm right about this too. Right? Right about how my story doesn't really matter compared to your story far as a god is involved. Far as you are concerned. Yes?
You got what you've prayed for. I have more than I ever hoped for. Coincidence? Not really, but at least to recognize no god required in any case, and as such it stands to reason your cause/effect conclusion(s) are not as true, accurate or as logical as you may think they are. What to make of the exceptions in any case?
You ask again, "at WHAT POINT" do we stop believing in "just coincidence?"
Or at what point should we think coincidence or good "luck" has anything to do with a god? I believe the answer is an emotional one. Having more to do with our predispositions and preferred inclinations over any kind of convincing evidence or proof. Take for example the winner of a billion dollar lottery. How incredibly lucky is that? Should we conclude that to win a lottery despite the incredible odds to the contrary that a god must be involved? As my wife is fond of saying, "someone has to win." Which is true and why no matter how much good or bad luck someone may enjoy or suffer, no god is necessarily involved. In fact these sorts of observations and evaluation as to the truth of these matters suggests the opposite.
Or here's another question for you. To drive home this point. If suddenly you experienced bad luck again. Extreme bad luck. Would this mean there is no god? Would this be proof you were wrong to believe in a god? If no, then how is good luck or good fortune any better or different a reason to believe in a god? This is what the deceased friend of our family also tried to point out in his book. It isn't the good or bad luck in life that proves the existence of a god, as he seemed to realize after a life chock full of both, in spades.
If your friend believes there is a deity because of the "order" of the world, in similar fashion I would have to understand what he sees as order and how that observation is any sort of proof of a god. I see both order in the "way the world turns," and I also see a great deal of disorder, here and throughout the universe. I'm not sure how either proves the existence of a god or even suggests such a thing. Are you? if not, why use Thrill as an example in the first place?
Good you/we agree it's better to question than not, because not to question is to foster more of the problem that not thinking and confirmation bias tends to bring. A serious problem the world over and throughout history. Better to strive toward the answers and the truth far as I'm concerned, and that takes objective thinking. The sort that doesn't put "the cart before the horse."
You write Christians and atheists ask the same questions but "for SOME reason" we come to different conclusions. I'd like to think I've explained that "SOME reason." What I've been able to observe and conclude based on all the evidence we've got to consider along these lines anyway. Ultimately the difference between what is simple human nature versus objective fact-based analysis. If you have a background in law, I suspect you can appreciate this distinction.
There may not be a solution to world hunger, but we can at least properly understand it's causes and effects, as we should if it's a better world we all want rather than make no progress at all. We ought to keep trying in any case. Not despair over what's difficult to know or understand. We can always do better.
Thanks to you too! No matter we see or understand things differently. Always a pleasure!
Last edited by LearnMe; 02-17-2023 at 11:05 AM..
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Even as a Christian, I've grappled with same question. 
