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Old 03-03-2023, 11:51 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783 View Post
And that is what I said in my original post. I guess the question is why the priest would say that angels met him and he is up in heaven now. Doesn’t he know what the Bible says? It would not be any worse to hear that the deceased is sleeping and awaiting the resurrection, along with the rest of us.

Is this similar to what many of my co workers ridicule me about regarding penance, or confession. They all say there is no reason to confess sins to a man (priest) when the Bible states you must confess directly to God. So, again, the Catholic Church is not following the Bible and making up their own rules. And this is what makes me have some doubt about religion. Just saying that makes me feel evil because I am not supposed to question my faith and I wouldn’t other than the fact that my religion seems to be practicing differently than what the Bible states. Let’s not get into me not eating meat today or any other Friday during Lent.
Again, the Bible does NOT say that the dead are resting in their graves until the resurrection. Only the body is in the grave, not the soul. Soul sleep is not biblically sound. I posted verses which show this. I showed you two verses which speak of people in heaven and they are not asleep. But if you want to ignore them and instead listen to people who promote soul sleep, then suit yourself.
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Old 03-03-2023, 11:52 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
Well, it's the eternal question, isn't it?


I'd be very wary of anyone claiming to have THE answer.

I've eventually come around to the notion that we are made of stars, and someday we'll be stars again, and that's the only immortality we can 100% count on. And it is beautiful, if stark.
Cosmological projections are that star formation in the universe will come to a halt in 100 trillion (!!!) years, and once those final stars burn out/'die', the atoms that were once in our body (and there are over 100 trillion atoms (100 trillion, there's that number again) in each of the ~30 trillion cells in our body, so do the math on that) will...no longer be the stuff of stars, but rather, the stuff of dark matter, presumably, in a universe ruled by entropy.

(The total number of atoms in our body is thus in the neighborhood of 3 x 10^27, if you multiply 100,000,000,000,000 by 30,000,000,000,000)
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Old 03-03-2023, 01:02 PM
 
Location: interior Alaska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783 View Post
And that is what I said in my original post. I guess the question is why the priest would say that angels met him and he is up in heaven now. Doesn’t he know what the Bible says? It would not be any worse to hear that the deceased is sleeping and awaiting the resurrection, along with the rest of us.

Is this similar to what many of my co workers ridicule me about regarding penance, or confession. They all say there is no reason to confess sins to a man (priest) when the Bible states you must confess directly to God. So, again, the Catholic Church is not following the Bible and making up their own rules. And this is what makes me have some doubt about religion. Just saying that makes me feel evil because I am not supposed to question my faith and I wouldn’t other than the fact that my religion seems to be practicing differently than what the Bible states. Let’s not get into me not eating meat today or any other Friday during Lent.
I'm agnostic leaning atheist, so I don't have a dog in this race, but Catholics (and other ancient Christian faiths) aren't strictly Bible-based. Church leaders and scholars assembled the official Bible from the various writings available at the time and their modern counterparts are cognizant that it's not a single work, but a collection of books and letters, which need to be read with context in mind. They consider it to be from God but not the ONLY source of information from God. Traditions and knowledge passed down from the early days of Christianity are also considered sources of information about cosmology and theology, as is ongoing revelation to a certain extent.

To put it another way: imagine you read a textbook from reliable authors and publisher. It will have the key information on the topic, but it won't have ALL the information on the topic. And to understand it fully it helps to have teachers who can contextualize it, point out the key bits, and elaborate upon it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
Cosmological projections are that star formation in the universe will come to a halt in 100 trillion (!!!) years, and once those final stars burn out/'die', the atoms that were once in our body (and there are over 100 trillion atoms (100 trillion, there's that number again) in each of the ~30 trillion cells in our body, so do the math on that) will...no longer be the stuff of stars, but rather, the stuff of dark matter, presumably, in a universe ruled by entropy.

(The total number of atoms in our body is thus in the neighborhood of 3 x 10^27, if you multiply 100,000,000,000,000 by 30,000,000,000,000)
Still cool.
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Old 03-03-2023, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Kansas
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Originally Posted by hljc View Post
If the person had repented to Jesus than they would have the prayers of Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit would have collected the spirit and soul of that person and brought to a place God prepared for them................ If the person ignored God and probably did not even know they were supposed to repent To Jesus of sin and turn away from sin then after they did pass from this world then they would be separated from God and would now be an enemy of God with no hope in the afterlife and Holy angel of God would also collect their spirit and soul to a place prepared for them
That is just one train of thought. There are many more, and no one really knows. The Bible, itself, is SO open to interpretation that there are many thoughts on what happens. And then, depart Christianity, and you have a lot of other thoughts about an afterlife or not.

No matter how one tries to put it all together, there is never really a "fit", at which time the subject of not questioning. As a questioner, I always had an issue with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayle White View Post
What is my version of Christianity?
I think what you had meant to say, but I could be wrong, was a comparison between being a Catholic and a Protestant. There are definitely some differences between the two, and then you have the breakdown of the many, many types of Protestant denominations, all a little different.
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Old 03-03-2023, 01:45 PM
 
63,264 posts, read 39,544,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
There is no consistent teaching in the various denominations concerning "soul sleep". The Bible is actually pretty vague on the topic, and there's room for interpretation. Although of course there are people with particular points of view who will fulminate to the contrary.

In a sense I don't see how soul sleep really matters since the transition would presumably seem instantaneous to you either way.

As an evangelical, I was taught that you went straight to heaven or hell but not with a physical body until the resurrection. Your presence in either place was purely "spiritual". There's also a lot of argument about what happens when. Is there a "rapture"? Is it before, in the middle of, or after the Great Tribulation? Is there a thousand-year reign of Christ yet to come after that? Are the dead resurrected before or after that? Or after the new heaven and earth are created? Where in the midst of all this fever dream does the resurrection happen? Is it spiritual, physical, both, or neither? Who lives in heaven and who lives on earth in the afterlife, and does it matter?

There's also the questions of purgatory, limbo, and other halfway house concepts between heaven and hell.

Personally I just consigned all of it to what phet calls "woo", long ago. Good luck getting straight answers to questions like yours.
Excellent post. The confusion is a result of the fact that we ONLY experience Reality as an "embodied" Spirit! We are already a Spirit but we have not yet been "born again" as Spirit because that happens upon our rebirth (what we consider our death). I believe sleep mimics the actual spiritual state (which is what troubles me).

Our dreams reflect the spiritual possibilities that we might encounter in our afterlife as "born again" Spirits. I suspect nightmares reflect the possible spiritual consequences of what we refer to as Hell or purgatory so that is disconcerting to me. I am reassured by my encounter because if I am with THAT consciousness, there can be no "nightmares." Making your peace with the consciousness of God (IMO the "mind of Christ") would be a wise decision as I see it!
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Old 03-03-2023, 01:50 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783 View Post
I am Catholic. Not super religious but go to church weekly and follow most of it. Quick question. I thought the Bible states that after death, we sleep until Jesus returns and then all of the dead will rise and go to heaven (or hell). Today, I was at a funeral mass. The priest said that the deceased was met by angels and is now in heaven. That is not what I thought the Bible says. Do they say it to comfort the family? Did the priest get it wrong? Is there another contradictory statement that says what the priest said?
I am Catholic as well, my 1st cousin is a Catholic priest. When my mom was dying, he also said that she will be met by a band of angels, and from there, to heaven. After her death, in the hallway outside her room, my dear cousin stood with me while my sibs and dad said their final goodbyes. I saw an orb on the wall of the room, like a reflection of a metal hospital tray catching the light from the window. In my mind, I thought nothing of it, just that I was relieved that my mom was no longer suffering. The orb moved towards the door and out, down the hall swooping high and then gone... I turned to my cousin and asked him if he had seen that. He asked me what I saw and I told him, thinking he would say I was nuts. He believed me, in fact, he said it was a gift from my mom. I sometimes question what I saw, but I saw that bright orb that left the room that day, and it felt like my mom was there....happy and at peace.
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783
And that is what I said in my original post. I guess the question is why the priest would say that angels met him and he is up in heaven now. Doesn’t he know what the Bible says? It would not be any worse to hear that the deceased is sleeping and awaiting the resurrection, along with the rest of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
Again, the Bible does NOT say that the dead are resting in their graves until the resurrection.
Again, the Bible DOES say that the dead are resting in their graves. I would not know this if not for what the Bible says. I have no firsthand experience to fall back on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
Only the body is in the grave, not the soul.
The 'soul' is not a separate entity. It's the complete person. When Adam was formed, he became a living soul only after the spirit (the breath) was breathed into his body by God. He then, and only then, became 'a living soul'. At death the reversal occurs. The deceased person is no longer a living soul since the breath is gone. We're told that this breath (spirit) is now in the possession of God. For all intents and purposes, the deceased person IS really dead, and they are (metaphorically) 'resting in their graves' until such times as that breath (spirit) is returned to them. I'm not sure why this is such aa problem for people to grasp. It even makes sense for those who accept the whole creation story as making sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
Soul sleep is not biblically sound.
But 'sleep' as a metaphor for the dead IS biblically sound. You're the one that is prefixing 'soul' to 'sleep'. Why do you do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
I posted verses which show this. I showed you two verses which speak of people in heaven and they are not asleep.
I can post 50-some verses that show that the dead ARE 'asleep' awaiting resurrection. I would think that the two verses you mention require some further study on your part as long as they appear to contradict what the Bible consistently has to say about the state of the dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
But if you want to ignore them and instead listen to people who promote soul sleep, then suit yourself.
You're the only one who is promoting the term 'soul sleep'. Again. why do you do this?

Drop the 'soul' part and just say 'sleep' ...just as the Bible does.
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:27 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romulusxxv View Post
again, the bible does say that the dead are resting in their graves. I would not know this if not for what the bible says. I have no firsthand experience to fall back on.



the 'soul' is not a separate entity. It's the complete person. when adam was formed, he became a living soul only after the spirit (the breath) was breathed into his body by god. He then, and only then, became 'a living soul'. At death the reversal occurs. The deceased person is no longer a living soul since the breath is gone. We're told that this breath (spirit) is now in the possession of god. For all intents and purposes, the deceased person is really dead, and they are (metaphorically) 'resting in their graves' until such times as that breath (spirit) is returned to them. I'm not sure why this is such aa problem for people to grasp. It even makes sense for those who accept the whole creation story as making sense.



but 'sleep' as a metaphor for the dead is biblically sound. You're the one that is prefixing 'soul' to 'sleep'. Why do you do that?



i can post 50-some verses that show that the dead are 'asleep' awaiting resurrection. I would think that the two verses you mention require some further study on your part as long as they appear to contradict what the bible consistently has to say about the state of the dead.



you're the only one who is promoting the term 'soul sleep'. Again. Why do you do this?

Drop the 'soul' part and just say 'sleep' ...just as the bible does.
There are at least three NT references to the soul being distinct from the body. Those references are 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, and Matthew 10:28. So the Bible indeed distinguishes between body, soul, and spirit.

The Adam story in the Genesis creation story is just a story. Many or most biblical scholars believe that Genesis one was written during or around the Babylonian captivity in the sixth century BCE. It's not historical or literal and you shouldn't try to base a doctrine - soul sleep- on it.

Soul sleep is the proper designation for this aberration of what the Bible teaches. Since the soul is indeed distinct from the body according to the Bible (refer to the three NT verses I post above) the soul separates from the body at physical death and goes to its afterlife destination. It is only the body that goes into the grave. Peter spoke of his soon departure from his earthly dwelling, referring to his body. He knew that his soul would survive the death of his body- 2 Peter 1:13-15

Soul sleep is the proper designation for this aberration of what the Bible says.

Your problem is that since you don't believe that we have a soul, that when the body dies, the person is non-existent until the resurrection. But again, there are at least three NT references to the soul and body being distinct parts of the person, plus Peter's statement that he was to soon leave his body behind and depart from it.

I am not the one who needs to do further study. You are the one who distorts the biblical passages pertaining to the tripartite nature of man (body, soul, and spirit) according to the Bible. And your position is a minority viewpoint which is quite at odds with the biblical view.
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Old 03-03-2023, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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I don't know where Paul got his information from other than from the Torah and his later relationship with, I guess, the Holy Spirit. However, he DOES appear to believe that he knows what he's talking about in these following two verses. AND, it's glaringly clear that Paul believes that the dead ARE 'sleeping' in their graves and that they WILL remain so until the resurrection. Here are those two passages of scripture that SHOULD leave us in no doubt about the state of the dead ACCORDING to Paul that is ALSO consistent with the rest of scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed.


Paul appears to be speaking to an audience that doesn't know what will happen on Resurrection Day. Or, they may otherwise hold views of the state of the dead that are based on cultural superstition, i.e., manmade stuff that doesn't tally with scripture ...much like we see today within Christianity. Paul is speaking of a 'mystery', something about which his audience don't appear to be clued into. Paul tells his audience that many (he gives a general 'we' that does not necessarily include himself) will still be alive when Jesus returns. They have not and will not experience 'death' or, as he refers to it, 'sleep'. Imagine Jesus returning today. The dead are in their graves, but we are presently living. And we who are alive, Paul continues, will experience a change - a change from mortal to IMMORTAL - when Jesus calls the 'sleeping' dead from their graves. In fact. Paul states elsewhere that the dead in Christ will rise first.

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How can there be any doubt in our minds as to what Paul is saying here? He is saying that the dead are 'awoken' from their 'sleep' in the twinkling of an eye when the trumpet sounds and then - and ONLY then - given immortality. Prior to this event the dead were in a state of 'hibernation of sorts' (my words) and had not yet experienced immortality.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Yes, 'everlasting life' can only be experienced when 'immortality' is applied and not before. AND ...'immortality' is not normally given to any human being alive or dead (Elijah, Enoch perhaps??) UNTIL the return of Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Why do we still debate 'the state of the dead' when we're told that "the dead know not anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6) which is a doctrine clearly supported by the words of Paul ...AND Jesus? 'The dead in Christ shall rise first' meaning that the deceased have NOT risen previously in ANY form and have gone to no other place other than their resting place PRIOR to this event taking place. Between death and the resurrection, the dead were not aware of ANYTHING. So, where did all of this other weird and wonderful stuff come from? The Roman Catholic Church, perhaps?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes, the former dead and those who are alive at the time of Jesus' return will together meet Jesus FOR THE FIRST TIME and begin their experience of eternal life - whatever that might entail - from then on.

As always, these ARE NOT 'my words'. I get these words from the very same Bible that all Christians claim to hold true.
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Old 03-03-2023, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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For those who may be interested, THIS is what 'soul' means given its definition in Strong's Concordance:

SOUL:
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.


Yes, I realize that some 'Christian conspirators' believe that the intention of the authors of Strong's Concordance is to collude with the KJV and throw mainstream Christian beliefs into disrepute () but the word under discussion (soul) cannot be given a false definition as long as there are expert linguists around who could easily dispute this. IS there any expert linguist anyone might know who disputes the above definition of 'soul'?

So, if we allow intelligence and reason to prevail, based on the above definition of 'soul', 'it' returns to God when a person dies. However, 'it' is not a living thing that sees, hears and feels but is rather an 'element' (my word) that, when applied to the body, gives that body 'life'.

Those of us that are not God can apply 'artificial respiration' to a clinically dead person by means of breathing techniques when natural respiration has ceased or is faltering. Such techniques, if applied quickly and properly, can prevent some deaths from drowning, choking, strangulation, suffocation, carbon monoxide poisoning, and electric shock.

Actually, even if the Bible didn't equate 'life' with 'body and breath' WE are surely smart enough to have figured that out for ourselves. A dead person ceases to breathe.
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