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Old 03-11-2023, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783 View Post
I am Catholic. Not super religious but go to church weekly and follow most of it. Quick question. I thought the Bible states that after death, we sleep until Jesus returns and then all of the dead will rise and go to heaven (or hell). Today, I was at a funeral mass. The priest said that the deceased was met by angels and is now in heaven. That is not what I thought the Bible says. Do they say it to comfort the family? Did the priest get it wrong? Is there another contradictory statement that says what the priest said?
Neither sleep nor heaven. I believe that the spirits of the dead will reside in an intermediate state until the resurrection of their respective bodies. They will be cognizant or aware of their surroundings and will have the ability to continue to learn and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.
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Old 03-11-2023, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Neither sleep nor heaven.
Well, there are more than 50 places in both the Old and the New Testaments that would disagree with you regarding 'sleep'. In fact, I don't know how an argument can be made against this biblical teaching. It's right there in your Bible.

The 'not going to heaven immediately at death' part of the ^ I DO acknowledge IS biblical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe that the spirits of the dead will reside in an intermediate state until the resurrection of their respective bodies.
We're told that our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

What we're told here is that 'death' amounts to a reversal of 'life' as per the Genesis story of human creation. Humankind was formed from the dust of the ground. Humankind returns to the dust of the ground, i.e., nonexistence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
They will be cognizant or aware of their surroundings and will have the ability to continue to learn and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.
Well, according to the Bible and not our personal beliefs, we're told that the dead know nothing, and even their very thoughts perish when they die. The dead are not cognizant or aware of their surroundings. This must be a manmade belief because nowhere in scripture are we told this. According to biblical teaching, there is no opportunity for the deceased to continue to learn and to make choices that will impact on their eternal destiny.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

In other words, all mental and physical processes cease when an individual dies.

Actually, while the dictionary is not 'divine', Solomon's definition of death concurs with Webster's Dictionary: "a permanent cessation of all vital functions: the end of life."
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Old 03-11-2023, 06:13 PM
 
9,940 posts, read 4,871,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Neither sleep nor heaven. I believe that the spirits of the dead will reside in an intermediate state until the resurrection of their respective bodies. They will be cognizant or aware of their surroundings and will have the ability to continue to learn and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.
The spirits of the dead are neuter spirits - Please notice one's spirit is a neuter " it " at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B
So, just as a foreclosed house (it) returns to the owner, the house does Not move or go anywhere, but any future for that house now lies in the owner's hands.
So, any future life for us now lies in God's safe hands because Jesus has the resurrection keys - Rev. 1:18
Since there 'will be' a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts 24:15 - then at that time the resurrected will have the ability to continue to learn and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.
Just as originally Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth before his downfall, the majority of mankind will have that same original offer to live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample. - Isaiah 35th chapter.
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Old 03-11-2023, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Tucson
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Wow, I'm glad it will be sleep. I can't imagine the torture of spending eternity with most the Christians I have met. Yikes.....
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Old 03-11-2023, 06:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
There is no evidence for any kind of afterlife at all. So the "null hypothesis" is this: after you die, you no longer exist. It will be exactly like the time before you were born. Some people find this upsetting, but it really shouldn't be. All of us were "dead" for ~14 billion years before we were born. I don't remember it being a problem!
An afterlife would be worse than a natural death, I think. Have you ever seen that movie Groundhog Day? The main character essentially gains eternal life...and it drives him nuts. Any kind of eternity would eventually become something like Groundhog Day....................................
The Bible teaches Not about afterlife (being more alive after death than before death) but the Bible teaches: Resurrection
There will be (future) a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts 24:15; Rev. 1:18
That future day is when Jesus governs over Earth for a thousand years - 1st Cor. 15:24-26

Adam and Eve were Not stuck in Groundhog Day but to cultivate the Earth expanding Eden world wide.
The whole blooming Earth would become like that beautiful paradisical Garden of delightful Eden.
Delight is what Jesus' soon coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth is about - Rev. 22:2
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Old 03-11-2023, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaffer324 View Post
Wow, I'm glad it will be sleep. I can't imagine the torture of spending eternity with most the Christians I have met. Yikes.....
However, it will, apparently, be a 'temporary sleep'. After the resurrection, if one is among the elect, they WILL be spending eternity with the rest of the 'elect'. Hopefully, the experience will be less of a and more of a

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Old 03-11-2023, 06:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
However, it will, apparently, be a 'temporary sleep'. After the resurrection, if one is among the elect, they WILL be spending eternity with the rest of the 'elect'. Hopefully, the experience will be less of a and more of a
I find after the ' temporary sleep ' those elect who have a first or earlier resurrection like those of Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10.
They are like the people described at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are called to Heaven as saints or holy ones.
They have two (2) heavenly jobs to preform for the humble meek who will inherit the Earth:
* They will serve mankind living on Earth as kings taking care of governmental responsibilities towards people of Earth.
* They will serve mankind living on Earth as priests taking care of spiritual duties towards people who inherit the Earth.
The figurative ' sheep ' at Jesus' coming Glory Time are people who can inherit the Earth - Matt.5:5; Psalm 37:9-11; Matt. 25:31-34,37
Besides the righteous and unrighteous who can have a favorable earthly resurrection - Acts 24:15
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:46 AM
 
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
Near death experiences perhaps make for interesting reading. However, whatever cannot be validated must therefore be regarded with skepticism. Regarding this particular thread topic, Immediately after death ...sleep or heaven?, the Bible is our only source to turn to. Even then, we need to keep our minds open since none of us have had firsthand experience of 'death and beyond' ...none of which can be authenticated anyway.
I am not quite sure what 'cannot be validated' means in this context.

The Bible is not the ONLY source to turn to since there are many other belief systems which also have something important to say about death and the afterlife. Their accounts are just as valid as the Bible accounts.

An open mind does not mean we look ONLY at the Bible. Surely, that is a closed mind, because it is only considering one source? An open mind would consider many sources of information and weight them all with the same critical eye and without bias towards any one of them.

I have given some alternative ideas in my previous post and these have been dismissed as 'interesting reading' when in fact these examples are the only real evidence we have which is agreed apon by many different subjective accounts (across belief systems and cultures), of NDEs and OBEs, as well as kids who remember....
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Old 03-12-2023, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,859 posts, read 29,668,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
Well, there are more than 50 places in both the Old and the New Testaments that would disagree with you regarding 'sleep'. In fact, I don't know how an argument can be made against this biblical teaching. It's right there in your Bible.

The 'not going to heaven immediately at death' part of the ^ I DO acknowledge IS biblical.




We're told that our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

What we're told here is that 'death' amounts to a reversal of 'life' as per the Genesis story of human creation. Humankind was formed from the dust of the ground. Humankind returns to the dust of the ground, i.e., nonexistence.



Well, according to the Bible and not our personal beliefs, we're told that the dead know nothing, and even their very thoughts perish when they die. The dead are not cognizant or aware of their surroundings. This must be a manmade belief because nowhere in scripture are we told this. According to biblical teaching, there is no opportunity for the deceased to continue to learn and to make choices that will impact on their eternal destiny.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

In other words, all mental and physical processes cease when an individual dies.

Actually, while the dictionary is not 'divine', Solomon's definition of death concurs with Webster's Dictionary: "a permanent cessation of all vital functions: the end of life."
I'd respond, Romulus, except that you and I have already had this conversation on numerous occasions. My original post was for those who may be interested in my perspective and want to explore it further.
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Old 03-12-2023, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Townsville
6,603 posts, read 2,806,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'd respond, Romulus, except that you and I have already had this conversation on numerous occasions. My original post was for those who may be interested in my perspective and want to explore it further.
Yes, I know. But while my response was to your post, I'm also aware that others may want to explore this topic further, so my post is also for them. Also, our own personal perspectives don't amount to much unless they tally with scripture. I don't hold a personal perspective on this subject as I don't have personal experience with death. So, it's the Bible for me. For all I know the scriptures could be in error but they're still all I've got as my go to source on topics such as this one.

I also look for consistency in the Bible. If something is pretty much established and consistently reaffirmed such as it is in this case, i.e., the dead are said to 'sleep' until the resurrection, then one's personal perspectives are not going to contradict this. Also, one, two or three cherry-picked scriptures are not going to contradict what has already been established. If they appear to do so, then they have clearly been misunderstood. One, two or three scriptures will not erase some 50-odd scriptures that say otherwise.

As I've said previously, I'm at a loss as to why 'dead=sleep=resurrection' would create such indignation among Christians. It seems to be a pretty good plan.
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