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It would be interesting if someone attacked and made fun of the OP's views in a childish way like he's dishing out. But he probably couldn't take it, so we'll continue to show a better representation of humanity (while enjoying the circus show).
Come on! You can't make a comment like that without doing it!
If you do not want to believe in the supernatural thats on you.
Why do you become so indignant that others know God and know that he is real? For some reason this really bothers you.
Now if you choose to not believe in God thats ok. It doesn't grieve or bother me in any way. It saddens me actually. I will pray for you.
I don't expect everyone who asks me this question to have read the innumerable responses I have written to it. Suffice this is the best explanation I can give for why I care:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
What I don't want to see is a young person bound for a career in medical research in curing cancer just by happenstance stumbling onto a mentally disturbed fanatical crackpot like John Piper and being lulled into losing that ambition to cure cancer by Piper's deceptive silver tongue and instead start planning to go to Bible college and become an evangelist spreading Piper's brand of poison around the world solely because he had the bad misfortune to tune into Piper's TV show one night and fell under Piper's snake oil pitch of leaving friends and family behind for Jesus.
I want to assure young people lurking in here that snake oil salesmen like Piper and MacArthur and Franklin and others of their ilk are dangerous degenerate nutjobs who are capable of leading ordinary good wholesome people into their deluded madcap world of mythical men gods and some non-existent afterlife where they will supposedly stand before some bizarre crazy god who will condemn them for not deserting their families and ambitions to follow Jesus, and Piper by extension, a sadistic charlatan who couldn't care less about savings souls unless it's under his terms and conditions and with generous donations to his bank account.
Normal people don't need that kind of craziness cluttering and ultimately destroying their lives, like it did this unfortunate victim:
"How this former evangelical pastor lost his belief in God
A mother-to-be, bolstered by Palmer's sermons that anything is possible with God if you have enough faith, believed her unborn child with a fatal disorder could survive. The infant died soon after birth, and the mother blamed herself.
"That triggered, 'How can I preach this stuff?'" Palmer said. "Beneath the appearance and the surfaces of people's lives there was a level of suffering and brokenness for which my theology did not touch."
Those cataclysmic moments about two decades ago sent Palmer down an introspective path that led to him leaving ministry and the end of his marriage."
Believe me there are tens of thousands of similar stories from ex-Christians.
DON'T BE ONE OF THEM!!!!!!
So because of my "obsessive" determination to keep young people in here from making the biggest mistake of their lives I expose as much of the lies and deceit in Christianity as I can. Now what helps is when a Christian is willing to admit, "Yes, there is a lot of deceit and dishonesty in Christianity. But there also some good".
Last edited by thrillobyte; 03-21-2023 at 04:23 PM..
No, I am operating under the notion that everyone needs to provide evidence for positive claims, including theists. If someone does not have that evidence, we do not need to believe those claims, especially when they are extraordinary claims.
And if theists do not feel the need to provide evidence for their claims, then they should stop making those claim if they do not want others to ask for evidence, and they need to stop trying to dictate how the world works based on their claims without evidence.
I'm definitely a secularist all the way when it comes to government institutions and societal way of life. If one wants to be religious or theist these should not permeate into our institutions. This is a personal decision for each individual and should have no societal bearing. Atheists should be 100 percent free to practice their beliefs on an individual level as well, but this should not impact the individual choice of a theist to believe in god.
If I say to you - I don't know if god exists or not. Do you have a problem with that? I'm not trying to change your own views, knowledge or experiences. Do you feel the need to interfere with my own views knowledge and experiences on the matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
So far, knowledge of the natural world is all we have, and has been for over 2000 years. It explains a lot, from why galaxies, stars and planets exist, to why we as humans are here, even to why we have morals. So far, all the evidence is for naturalism. Atheists have met that burden of proof, even though many do not realize this.
To argue there is a god behind all of this is an extra claim, and it is that extra claim that requires extra evidence.
I part ways here. I don't think you have met the burden of proof for existence. I think you don't realize it because you don't have enough information, even though you for whatever reason, you think you do.
It has nothing to do with knowing everything about existence, it is to do with using what we do know, and not arguing from what we do not know.
It is 100 percent about knowing everything or at the very least a lot more than we know now. How on earth can you come to a conclusion about something when you don't have all the information. What we know is not enough - not even close.
So because of my "obsessive" determination to keep young people in here from making the biggest mistake of their lives I expose as much of the lies and deceit in Christianity as I can. Now what helps is when a Christian is willing to admit, "Yes, there is a lot of deceit and dishonesty in Christianity. But there also some good".
So is your problem with a religion like Christianity or is it all religions and all theists? God itself? If someone wants to embark on a spiritual path, do you feel the need to prevent them from making the biggest mistake of their life? Seems almost like what religions have done but in reverse.
It is 100 percent about knowing everything or at the very least a lot more than we know now. How on earth can you come to a conclusion about something when you don't have all the information. What we know is not enough - not even close.
Correct. What we know about an object is never complete. We cannot look at a piece of rock and simply name it rock or call it only rock. It is also mineral, silica, salt. When it is labeled it limits what it is to the label. All objects have this quality of uncertainty about them. They share two qualities, one is state and the other is how it behaves, and these are not all always determinable.
How on earth can you come to a conclusion about something when you don't have all the information.
Theists should answer that very same question. If there isn't enough evidence to rule out god, there's not enough to rule him in, either.
It isn't really an "in or out" sort of question though. It is just not assuming things that aren't substantiatable. God is, at the end of the day, a great big assumption.
So is your problem with a religion like Christianity or is it all religions and all theists? God itself? If someone wants to embark on a spiritual path, do you feel the need to prevent them from making the biggest mistake of their life?
What I want them to know foremost is that "God" is just a chemical reaction in the brain according to science, triggered by strong emotions that in turn are triggered by their sincere belief that when they pray or commune with their gods, Yahweh and Jesus these gods are actually communing back with them. Their brain then creates a burst of chemicals called "feel good" chemicals dopamine and endorphins that flood their body making them feel good the way dope and sex makes a human feel good.
"God" is simple biology, fusion. It the result of a million years of evolution. There's nothing spiritual about being filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a mythical entity invented by the Catholic Church. But it's the power of the human mind to deceive itself based on dogmas it has been taught by church leaders that makes religions, especially Christianity so dangerous to normal rational humans.
Normal rational human beings have safeguards in place in their minds to protect them from the deceptive teaching of Christianity. It's the weak-willed, gullible and naive individuals who usually fall under the deceptive dishonesty that Christianity promotes. It's also why they vociferously defend their religion against all charges of deception and dishonesty even though the evidence pointing to such deception and dishonesty is so voluminous that no one in their right mind would deny it.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 03-21-2023 at 05:23 PM..
Correct. What we know about an object is never complete. We cannot look at a piece of rock and simply name it rock or call it only rock. It is also mineral, silica, salt. When it is labeled it limits what it is to the label. All objects have this quality of uncertainty about them. They share two qualities, one is state and the other is how it behaves, and these are not all always determinable.
I think to things like exotic particles that can come in and out of the existence we know of. Things like quantum entanglement and of course, what was the universe about before the big bang. Did that state just hang out there for eternity or was there a trigger that activated it and if there was a trigger what was it. Science has done so much for us explaining the how's of the physical world so far, but there are still soo many unknowns about the physical universe that we as a species need to learn. It doesn't do as good of a job explaining the why's and ultimately answering the fundamental question of why does this all exist in the first place. Was there an inspiration for it and was there a process that was put in place that was managed or unmanaged. Is the universe more finely tuned than we believe and if so was that god or something else, or just a series of natural unmanaged, uninspired processes that somehow led us over a long time to where we are now. For all this, i'm simply not going to dismiss some sort of element that is beyond what an Athiest will conclude from science, as to why we are all living in this existence as we are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Theists should answer that very same question. If there isn't enough evidence to rule out god, there's not enough to rule him in, either.
When you look at in from the lens of evidence, I think this a very reasonable statement. We can all have our own experiences and beliefs - our questions and our inspirations but even with all that said, I think your statement resonates very strongly with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It isn't really an "in or out" sort of question though. It is just not assuming things that aren't substantiatable. God is, at the end of the day, a great big assumption.
Again I can't argue with this and have no desire to. For me too many questions and not enough answers. I have my own experiences and feelings about it, but that hasn't convinced myself in a rational way that god exists or doesn't. Everything fundamental about existence imo is an assumption at this point. Tragically, the answer to our biggest questions we may never learn.
What I want them to know foremost is that "God" is just a chemical reaction in the brain according to science, triggered by strong emotions that in turn are triggered by their sincere belief that when they pray or commune with their gods, Yahweh and Jesus these gods are actually communing back with them. Their brain then creates a burst of chemicals called "feel good" chemicals dopamine and endorphins that flood their body making them feel good the way dope and sex makes a human feel good.
"God" is simple biology, fusion. It the result of a million years of evolution. There's nothing spiritual about being filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a mythical entity invented by the Catholic Church. But it's the power of the human mind to deceive itself based on dogmas it has been taught by church leaders that makes religions, especially Christianity so dangerous to normal rational humans.
Normal rational human beings have safeguards in place in their minds to protect them from the deceptive teaching of Christianity. It's the weak-willed, gullible and naive individuals who usually fall under the deceptive dishonesty that Christianity promotes. It's also why they vociferously defend their religion against all charges of deception and dishonesty even though the evidence pointing to such deception and dishonesty is so voluminous that no one in their right mind would deny it.
LOL! Sorry Thrill, but I can't think of anything about biology that's "simple."
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