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Old 04-09-2023, 08:21 AM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,920,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Well what if that's the legitimate answer? What if there are people in this world who don't pretend to know literally everything?
No one knows literally EVERYTHING about Christianity. It's teachings and dogmas could be gathered in something the size of the IRS tax code. One like myself can make a rigorous study of it on the Internet and use their brains to ferret what sounds right from what doesn't sound right with simply logic and rationale. Is that too big an order for a Christian--to just crack a book and read the pros and cons?

The legitimate answer is what the text says, "Israel is my son, NOT Jesus. I made no mention of Jesus. I said I called my son, Israel out of Egypt when my servant Moses led them out of Egypt to Canaan, NOT Jesus."

Read the words again. Do you see Jesus mentioned anywhere in that verse?

“When Israel was a child, I loved him,And out of Egypt I called My son."

So why do apologists continue to lie through their teeth saying "Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. That proves he is the son of God who died for your sins."


Doesn't that seem dishonest to you? Why are Christian apologists so dishonest?
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Old 04-09-2023, 08:26 AM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,920,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compwiz02 View Post
Regarding this specific scripture since my response is requested, I have no idea who said Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are involved in Exodus. Exodus is the story of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. Unless I am missing something, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are not involved. So yes, I would agree that there is a connection to Exodus. Not sure why you'd have to get angry and say "phony claptrap". If someone has a different interpretation of the verse, I'd love to know their interpretation and why they interpret the verse in the way that they do.
That's fine. Let's leave that verse for now. It's pretty apparent Jesus is nowhere to be found in it. I mean you don't see his name, do you?


Have a look at this. What's your thoughts. You seem to be the ONLY Christian willing to engage with me on this topic. All the other apparently are scared witless to respond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Let's take a look at another OT passage that Christian apologists try to pawn off as predicting Jesus:


Micah 5:2. Everybody has heard the infamous


“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[b] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”


All apologists will say Micah 5:2 is about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.


It's NOT about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.


The gospel writers tried to make it the birthplace of Jesus. Why? It's pretty obvious. Because of "out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel" That's supposed to be Jesus, ruler of Israel at some future date.


But notice further down the passage in verses 5-6:


And he [Jesus] will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
He [Jesus] will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land

and march across our borders."



Now anyone with a modicum of knowledge about ancient history knows that when Jesus was alive the Assyrians had been wiped out centuries earlier. It was the Romans who had invaded Israel and were occupying Israel when Jesus was born.


Did you catch why apologists will always rave about Micah 5:2 being about Jesus but won't touch verses 5 and 6 with a 10-foot pole?


So once again I ask:


Is the verse about Jesus when it clearly states Jesus will deliver Israel from the Assyrians?
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Old 04-09-2023, 08:37 AM
 
412 posts, read 137,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That's fine. Let's leave that verse for now. It's pretty apparent Jesus is nowhere to be found in it. I mean you don't see his name, do you?


Have a look at this. What's your thoughts. You seem to be the ONLY Christian willing to engage with me on this topic. All the other apparently are scared witless to respond.
By that logic, they are also afraid that you will give each of them a billion dollars.
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Old 04-09-2023, 08:46 AM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,920,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayle White View Post
By that logic, they are also afraid that you will give each of them a billion dollars.

What's your opinion, Hayle? Does Micah 5:2 refer to Jesus or someone else?
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Old 04-09-2023, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,779 posts, read 4,982,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thrill, you simply are not equipped to contemplate the significance of any of the inspirations since you seek specificity in the references to individuals in time and space. But they ALWAYS refer GENERICALLY to our entire SPECIES (Humanity itself). By treating them as specific predictions for any specific time and place you are treating them as divination, NOT prophecy.

Prophecy is only validated by recognizing and matching subsequent occurrences in the future. It cannot be known ahead of time and interpreted as to any specific time and place. Jesus brought God's Holy Spirit perfectly to humanity as predicted for our SPECIES, not for any specific time and place. The Hebrews missed Jesus because they had determined what the prophecies referred to ahead of time (Divination) and were looking for the wrong Messiah with the wrong signs.
Or much (if not all) gospel Jesus was invented out of the OT, as historians accept.
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Old 04-09-2023, 09:14 AM
 
1,341 posts, read 655,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Let's take a look at another OT passage that Christian apologists try to pawn off as predicting Jesus:


Micah 5:2. Everybody has heard the infamous


“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[b] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”


All apologists will say Micah 5:2 is about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.


It's NOT about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.


The gospel writers tried to make it the birthplace of Jesus. Why? It's pretty obvious. Because of "out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel" That's supposed to be Jesus, ruler of Israel at some future date.


But notice further down the passage in verses 5-6:


And he [Jesus] will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
He [Jesus] will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land

and march across our borders."



Now anyone with a modicum of knowledge about ancient history knows that when Jesus was alive the Assyrians had been wiped out centuries earlier. It was the Romans who had invaded Israel and were occupying Israel when Jesus was born.


Did you catch why apologists will always rave about Micah 5:2 being about Jesus but won't touch verses 5 and 6 with a 10-foot pole?


So once again I ask:


Is the verse about Jesus when it clearly states Jesus will deliver Israel from the Assyrians?
I'll assume your statement about Jesus being alive and the Assyrians being wiped out centuries earlier is correct. My knowledge of ancient history is limited.

Just reading the scripture, verse 2 does talk about someone who will be the ruler over Israel at a future date who is of elderly age. So again, unless I am missing something, I would not say it is Jesus that the verse is referring to. I don't know what "Bethlehem Ephrathah" means.

Verses 5-6 - I'm not sure who the verse is referring to when it says "he" so I have no idea. Jesus would be a good assumption. I read the verses on biblegateway and it does not include Jesus's name.

The chapter says "A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem". Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Quote:
Did you catch why apologists will always rave about Micah 5:2 being about Jesus but won't touch verses 5 and 6 with a 10-foot pole?
Not sure. I'm sure there are some who will talk about that verse.

Quote:
Is the verse about Jesus when it clearly states Jesus will deliver Israel from the Assyrians?
Those 3 verses do not state "Jesus". It states a male person and "Bethlehem Ephrathah" so we could guess it is referring to Jesus.

Quote:
It's NOT about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.
I agree. Those 3 verses do not state Jesus's name so we would have to guess or assume that those verses could be referring to Jesus.
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Old 04-09-2023, 09:21 AM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,920,340 times
Reputation: 7553
I'm listening to some YouTube videos of apologists preaching "See this 'He' in the verse? This is referring to Jesus."





I mean I am just flabbergasted that these guys willy-nilly say, "This is Jesus."

Isaiah 2:4

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people"

Jesus!

Jeremiah 33:15

"In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land."

Jesus!

Wherever the word "He" appears in the Old Testament it's Jesus!

This is just pure unadulterated dishonesty and deceit. It's shocking the level that Christians stoop to try to convince people Jesus is real.


Let's look at Revelation 12:8


7 "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But HE was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven."


"He" is also about Jesus, right?
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Old 04-09-2023, 09:56 AM
 
1,480 posts, read 480,102 times
Reputation: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
One of the Big Lies Christianity propounds is that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament.

Jesus WASN'T predicted in the Old Testament.

Christian apologists take vague and obscure scriptures out of context relevant to the period of Jewish history in which they were written and try to twist and contort them into predictions about Jesus, and it simply cannot be done--to satisfy any clear-headed rational-thinking adult, that is. Any Christian who cracked a Bible to actually study these vague and confusing passages would see that they are referring to people and places and times completely unrelated to Jesus.

A perfect example of the deceit the gospel writer, Matthew employed to trick readers into believing Jesus was predicted in the OT can be found in Matthew 2:14-15 where Joseph takes Mary and the baby Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's wrath.

Now this whole story of running to Egypt is pure baloney--invented by Matthew (it doesn't appear in Mark) to get an nebulous line from Hosea worked into his gospel story and to try to convince readers that the OT predicted Jesus:

"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet [Hosea]: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:14-15

But a cursory look at the complete "prophecy" shows that Hosea wasn't referring to Jesus at all nor does the line even hint at a future Messiah:

"When ISRAEL was a child, I loved him [Israel], and out of Egypt I called my son, [Israel]. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images." Hosea 11:1-2

So unless Matthew wants to say that Jesus sacrificed to Baal and burned incense to Baal, then apologists are going to have to own up to the fact that the passage refers to Israel and her wayward ways worshiping Baal and does NOT refer to Jesus.

Every single passage that Christians claim refers to Jesus can be easily refuted and shown to be referring to something completely apart from Jesus. In subsequent posts I will show clearly how the most infamous "Jesus" prophecies are not about Jesus at all.

And thus was fulfilled the task of showing Jesus is NOT in the Old Testament.
Just like Herod, and in the same spirit you seek to deny the existence of Jesus Christ and eliminate him.

Who are you having this fight with?

Just like Herod and in the same spirit, you can't see anything past yourself.
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Old 04-09-2023, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA, now.
21,020 posts, read 19,383,279 times
Reputation: 23666
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thrill, you simply are not equipped....
Sorry, can't stop laughing that you said that.
But, really is anybody..equipped? So much symbolizes - in Hosea - is God talking about Israel?
I never got that. Does one thing always have to mean something else?
It could be crazy making!
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Old 04-09-2023, 11:05 AM
 
1,341 posts, read 655,450 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post

Wherever the word "He" appears in the Old Testament it's Jesus!

This is just pure unadulterated dishonesty and deceit. It's shocking the level that Christians stoop to try to convince people Jesus is real.
I'll just respond to this statement. If Christians want to say that Jesus is what the OT is referring to whenever "he" is mentioned, then fine. Not sure what the problem is.

Jesus is mostly in the New Testament.

Here's one OT verse I found:

Isaiah 7:14

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Immanuel is another name Jesus was called. The only virgin I know in the bible is Mary.

Jesus is mentioned all over the New Testament. Are you using the Old Testament as your basis for why Jesus is not real?
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