Christian apologists twist Old Testament scriptures to point them to Jesus (Muslims, history)
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But you seem to attribute this longevity entirely to our human craftiness, deceit, and whatnot. Why are you so sure about that???
Craftiness and deceit?????? Did you not read the title of the thread? The early church was filled with craftiness and deceit, but nowhere near the extent that the RCC was beginning in the Dark Ages and stretching through the Medieval period up to the Reformation. Did you never read of how Martin Luther, a Roman Catholic monk rebelled against the Church because it was selling indulgences for $$$$'s?
To the title of this thread, the early church fathers were selling pagans the idea that their religion was the one true religion because their avatar man god, Jesus had been predicted over 400 times in the Old Testament Septuagint. We've seen in the course of this thread with roughly 10 so-called "predictions" thus far--and more to come--that Jesus is nowhere to be found in them except in the deceitful minds of crafty churchmen who used them as a dishonest selling point. I could go through all 400 "predictions" and show exactly how each has nothing to do with Jesus.
You want deceit? How about early churchmen telling pagans that they have to believe in their avatar man god, Jesus "ON FAITH". Why? because they had absolutely no evidence Jesus ever lived to offer the pagans so how else were they going to sell Jesus to pagans who already had plenty of gods to worship and believe in?
You want craftiness? How about the way they were telling pagans that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection when they had absolutely no idea who wrote the gospels until Irenaeus came along and named them MML and J?
I could go on and on about the deceit and craftiness in the Christian religion but others have done it so much better in hundreds of books exposing Christianity's deceit and craftiness and the bogus defenses apologists like J. Warner Wallace, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel and dozens of others use to prop Christianity up.
This is entirely understandable. But can you not see that for a believer in Christ, it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God that made Jesus "a sacrifice TO the Jews' wrath and vengeance in service to God (or as Jesus said, "they knew not what they did.").
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
I'm confused by that wording -- when sacrifices are made they are made TO God. To say that something was a sacrifice TO the Jews makes it seem like the sacrifice was an offering TO Jews.
None of this addresses the problems with calling Jesus' death a "sacrifice" in any ritually appropriate way, but I am not exactly clear on the semantics of the statement, itself.
Sorry to have confused you, rosends. I am grateful for your aid in clarifying things for me about Judaism. In the eyes of a Christian, it was the Jews who demanded His crucifixion by the Romans because they believed He offended God by His blasphemous claims. (I will not debate this premise, but it is their premise).
Jesus did not object or defend Himself and sacrificed His life out of agape love for them because as He purportedly said "They know not what they do." It is in that sense that it was a sacrifice to them, not in the way sacrifices to God are made. I respect you too much to debate any of this with you, but that is what I meant.
Sorry to have confused you, rosends. I am grateful for your aid in clarifying things for me about Judaism. In the eyes of a Christian, it was the Jews who demanded His crucifixion by the Romans because they believed He offended God by His blasphemous claims. (I will not debate this premise, but it is their premise).
Jesus did not object or defend Himself and sacrificed His life out of agape love for them because as He purportedly said "They know not what they do." It is in that sense that it was a sacrifice to them, not in the way sacrifices to God are made. I respect you too much to debate any of this with you, but that is what I meant.
Respect? really?
a sign of actual respect would be to oh how about let's start with (a) stop staying things like "it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God"
and then move on to (b) stop with perpetuating the incendiary claim of deicide which has been used to incite and justify violence against Jews for centuries.Historians as well as Christian leaders have agreed that the claim is baseless. Those with even a modicum of education and research know this. Those bent on bigotry, well, state things like posts above and below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
This is entirely understandable. But can you not see that for a believer in Christ, it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God that made Jesus "a sacrifice TO the Jews' wrath and vengeance in service to God (or as Jesus said, "they knew not what they did.").
Respect? really?
a sign of actual respect would be to stop saying things like "it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God"
Yes, I respect rosends and he was extremely helpful to me. Stop badgering. Yes, our ancient ancestors had many mistaken beliefs about God, IMO!!! Throwing live babies into fires to please God has to be the worst of our ancient ancestors' mistaken beliefs about God. Stoning people to death for offending God is also barbaric. Stop pretending I am only referring to the Jews. They ALL had absurdly primitive and barbaric beliefs about God, IMO!!!
Christianity is born from the religion of the Jews, Tzaph. Jesus IS a Jew. I adopted Christianity because of Jesus, NOT the beliefs of the Jews specifically. Jesus's efforts can only be described as trying to correct their mistaken beliefs about God, IMO. But my opinion of our ancient ancestors is not restricted to the Jews.
Yes, I respect rosends and he was extremely helpful to me. Stop badgering. Yes, our ancient ancestors had many mistaken beliefs about God, IMO!!! Throwing live babies into fires to please God has to be the worst of our ancient ancestors' mistaken beliefs about God. Stoning people to death for offending God is also barbaric. Stop pretending I am only referring to the Jews. They ALL had absurdly primitive and barbaric beliefs about God, IMO!!!
The fact is that you explicitly and emphatically and clearly DID refer to the Jews in your posts. Just now. in posts #866 and #886.
and right there in post #889 too just above. You state that the Jews (and all other paths and sages which precede your own chosen path) "had absurdly primitive and barbaric beliefs about God." yes that's your opinion. but no, it is is not showing respect.
The fact is that you explicitly and emphatically and clearly DID refer to the Jews in your posts. Just now. in posts #866 and #886.
and right there in post #889 too just above. You state that the Jews (and all other paths and sages which precede your own chosen path) "had absurdly primitive and barbaric beliefs about God." yes that's your opinion. but no, it is is not showing respect.
Disagreeing with someone or a group is not disrespect.
The topic of this thread is twisting of the OT. Views expressed in posts in this thread continue to demonstrate and engage in that same behavior. Crstnty is not a reliable or credible source for what Judaism says, does, teaches. That is also demonstrated in this thread.
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