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Old 04-08-2023, 12:01 PM
 
18,185 posts, read 16,750,104 times
Reputation: 7418

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One of the Big Lies Christianity propounds is that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament.

Jesus WASN'T predicted in the Old Testament.

Christian apologists take vague and obscure scriptures out of context relevant to the period of Jewish history in which they were written and try to twist and contort them into predictions about Jesus, and it simply cannot be done--to satisfy any clear-headed rational-thinking adult, that is. Any Christian who cracked a Bible to actually study these vague and confusing passages would see that they are referring to people and places and times completely unrelated to Jesus.

A perfect example of the deceit the gospel writer, Matthew employed to trick readers into believing Jesus was predicted in the OT can be found in Matthew 2:14-15 where Joseph takes Mary and the baby Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's wrath.

Now this whole story of running to Egypt is pure baloney--invented by Matthew (it doesn't appear in Mark) to get an nebulous line from Hosea worked into his gospel story and to try to convince readers that the OT predicted Jesus:

"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet [Hosea]: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:14-15

But a cursory look at the complete "prophecy" shows that Hosea wasn't referring to Jesus at all nor does the line even hint at a future Messiah:

"When ISRAEL was a child, I loved him [Israel], and out of Egypt I called my son, [Israel]. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images." Hosea 11:1-2

So unless Matthew wants to say that Jesus sacrificed to Baal and burned incense to Baal, then apologists are going to have to own up to the fact that the passage refers to Israel and her wayward ways worshiping Baal and does NOT refer to Jesus.

Every single passage that Christians claim refers to Jesus can be easily refuted and shown to be referring to something completely apart from Jesus. In subsequent posts I will show clearly how the most infamous "Jesus" prophecies are not about Jesus at all.

And thus was fulfilled the task of showing Jesus is NOT in the Old Testament.
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Old 04-08-2023, 02:09 PM
 
18,185 posts, read 16,750,104 times
Reputation: 7418
Just to warn the readers in advance, some Christian is going to come on this thread and say that these "prophecies" have double meanings--that they refer to the events of that particular period in Israel's history AND to Jesus as prophetic utterances. It's a clever ruse--an attempt to try to pull the wool over people's eyes, seeing as how Christians are at a loss to explain away the obvious fact the OT verses have nothing to do with Jesus. And thus do Christians demonstrate the depths of dishonesty they are willing to stoop to convince people Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of man.

Don't be fooled by their guile.

The OT verses refer to things IN that time in Israel's history centuries before Jesus came along and no other period--certainly not Jesus.
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Old 04-08-2023, 03:06 PM
 
63,374 posts, read 39,639,230 times
Reputation: 7774
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
One of the Big Lies Christianity propounds is that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament.

Jesus WASN'T predicted in the Old Testament.

Christian apologists take vague and obscure scriptures out of context relevant to the period of Jewish history in which they were written and try to twist and contort them into predictions about Jesus, and it simply cannot be done--to satisfy any clear-headed rational-thinking adult, that is. Any Christian who cracked a Bible to actually study these vague and confusing passages would see that they are referring to people and places and times completely unrelated to Jesus.

A perfect example of the deceit the gospel writer, Matthew employed to trick readers into believing Jesus was predicted in the OT can be found in Matthew 2:14-15 where Joseph takes Mary and the baby Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's wrath.

Now this whole story of running to Egypt is pure baloney--invented by Matthew (it doesn't appear in Mark) to get an nebulous line from Hosea worked into his gospel story and to try to convince readers that the OT predicted Jesus:

"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet [Hosea]: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:14-15

But a cursory look at the complete "prophecy" shows that Hosea wasn't referring to Jesus at all nor does the line even hint at a future Messiah:

"When ISRAEL was a child, I loved him [Israel], and out of Egypt I called my son, [Israel]. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images." Hosea 11:1-2

So unless Matthew wants to say that Jesus sacrificed to Baal and burned incense to Baal, then apologists are going to have to own up to the fact that the passage refers to Israel and her wayward ways worshiping Baal and does NOT refer to Jesus.

Every single passage that Christians claim refers to Jesus can be easily refuted and shown to be referring to something completely apart from Jesus. In subsequent posts I will show clearly how the most infamous "Jesus" prophecies are not about Jesus at all.

And thus was fulfilled the task of showing Jesus is NOT in the Old Testament.
Thrill, you simply are not equipped to contemplate the significance of any of the inspirations since you seek specificity in the references to individuals in time and space. But they ALWAYS refer GENERICALLY to our entire SPECIES (Humanity itself). By treating them as specific predictions for any specific time and place you are treating them as divination, NOT prophecy.

Prophecy is only validated by recognizing and matching subsequent occurrences in the future. It cannot be known ahead of time and interpreted as to any specific time and place. Jesus brought God's Holy Spirit perfectly to humanity as predicted for our SPECIES, not for any specific time and place. The Hebrews missed Jesus because they had determined what the prophecies referred to ahead of time (Divination) and were looking for the wrong Messiah with the wrong signs.
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Old 04-08-2023, 03:13 PM
 
Location: TEXAS
3,770 posts, read 1,329,618 times
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Thrill - you need to learn about typology- the prototypes are never perfect renditions of the archetypes.
Perhaps way about the pay-grade of fundie thinking, though!
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Old 04-08-2023, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,745 posts, read 3,940,591 times
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Its surreal to be away from this forum for so long only to come back to find the same people arguing the same things.
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Old 04-08-2023, 03:57 PM
 
18,185 posts, read 16,750,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
Thrill - you need to learn about typology- the prototypes are never perfect renditions of the archetypes.
Perhaps way about the pay-grade of fundie thinking, though!

God wrote the Bible. I thought God WAS perfect and that EVERYTHING he did IS perfect.
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Old 04-08-2023, 04:16 PM
 
18,185 posts, read 16,750,104 times
Reputation: 7418
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thrill, you simply are not equipped to contemplate the significance of any of the inspirations since you seek specificity in the references to individuals in time and space. But they ALWAYS refer GENERICALLY to our entire SPECIES (Humanity itself). By treating them as specific predictions for any specific time and place you are treating them as divination, NOT prophecy.

Prophecy is only validated by recognizing and matching subsequent occurrences in the future. It cannot be known ahead of time and interpreted as to any specific time and place. Jesus brought God's Holy Spirit perfectly to humanity as predicted for our SPECIES, not for any specific time and place. The Hebrews missed Jesus because they had determined what the prophecies referred to ahead of time (Divination) and were looking for the wrong Messiah with the wrong signs.

I know one thing, Mystic:


Christians claim Jesus is predicted in the Old Testament. That's what they say. No generic; no species, no divinations, no other gobbledygook. They say, "You can believe Jesus is the Son of God and he died for your sins because JESUS WAS PREDICTED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT."


That is a lie, Mystic. You know it. I know it. All this other stuff is just painting lipstick on a pig to gloss over the untruth to make it APPEAR Jesus was predicted. But he wasn't.
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Old 04-08-2023, 04:53 PM
 
1,296 posts, read 616,445 times
Reputation: 492
Once again, I am amused by your ability to HATE Christianity. I made a post about it before and you defend yourself saying you are just really confident in what you believe. It's as though something terrible happened to you when you were a Christian and you have made it your mission to make Christianity fall.

I'm glad you are extremely confident in your beliefs, Thrillo. But being humble is very important. Don't assume all Christians believe in the same things.
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Old 04-08-2023, 05:00 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 25 days ago)
 
18,726 posts, read 6,811,539 times
Reputation: 3519
Or maybe we believe God knows better what he said than a God-hating atheist in 2023 with nothing better to do than to whine about it on C-D.
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Old 04-08-2023, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,719 posts, read 13,265,101 times
Reputation: 9711
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet [Hosea]: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:14-15

But a cursory look at the complete "prophecy" shows that Hosea wasn't referring to Jesus at all nor does the line even hint at a future Messiah:

"When ISRAEL was a child, I loved him [Israel], and out of Egypt I called my son, [Israel]. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images." Hosea 11:1-2
Yeah that is a particularly egregious misrepresentation of scripture in the service of dogma. But evangelicals especially are fond of multiple interpretations or fulfillments of prophecy. In this instance, they'd simply say that yes God called the Jews out of Egypt (itself BTW something that likely never happened, as there's no historical evidence for Moses or the Exodus or even for a national captivity in Egypt) -- but also, clearly, since Jesus fled to and returned from Egypt, it was cleverly also applicable to him.

This sleight of hand allows them to interpret or force fit anything they want to passages ... even passages that aren't really claiming to predict anything in the future, like this one; it's simply stating something alleged to have happened in the writer's PAST.
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