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A couple of questions here. For your first question women can't be priests because men and women aren't the same. Everywhere in the created world there is an order to things, the Earth revolving around the Sun for example. God isn't an anarchist, the devil on the other hand very much is. For her to leave, especially for such a reason, is spiritually very dangerous. The church is headed by Jesus Christ Himself, to be a member of it and walk away is literally walking away from Jesus. Given that the church honors Mary as being second only to God, one can hardly call it misogynistic.
Rejecting the implications is a rejection of the philosophy that spawned it.
Not if you have a valid criteria for accepting or rejecting it. If a "philosophy" (or in this case actually just a standard for what you will or won't afford belief to) is rejected merely because you don't like its implications, then I'd suggest that's not a valid reason. Also, I think you are averse to the implications because you don't fully understand them and have been in fact conditioned to do mischaracterize them.
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Originally Posted by illumined
Like I say, otherwise there is no intrinsic meaning. If we make up our own meaning, then sure it can be fairly innocuous such as finding meaning in providing for your family, but most of the time it's highly, highly destructive. It's the root of revolution.
On what basis do you conclude that is is destructive most of the time? And what do you mean by "revolution"?
I have always been highly ethical and responsible and moral, and nothing has changed because I'm no longer a Christian. If anything, things have improved, because I am in no way doing the right things for the wrong reasons -- to avoid divine retribution, say. I think that has always been my nature anyway. My faith was just a mechanism to take the credit for my ethics away from me.
Your argument would hold more water if we saw some clear relationship between ethical behavior and Christian belief. But we see all sorts of monstrous things both done and approved of in the name of god.
The doctrine of the utter depravity of man is something I no longer buy, in spite of the mounting atrocities in the world. There are always good actors standing in the breach. Man is capable of utterly depraved and highly noble behaviors. As you say, it is a choice. If a reprobate like me can choose well, then it has nothing to do with god-beliefs.
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Originally Posted by illumined
There is no paradox, God gave us free will and respects it.
If god is in control then he would BE in control. You wouldn't need him to carve out a special zone of control for you personally. That has nothing to do with free will, it has to do with control, and the (lack of) utility of such control. You want a Guiding Hand; well ... all I can say is, good luck with that.
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Originally Posted by illumined
See, this is a caricature of who God is, He isn't a dictator. He will allow you the freedom not to follow Him, not love Him.
Who said anything about god being a dictator? He's supposed to be a protector, provider, confidante, parent-figure, a "friend that sticks closer than a brother", etc etc. When those value propositions are put forward, no one bothers to mention that such a level of interventionism amounts to dictatorship, given that it's conditional on submitting to his "lordship". But what we actually see in lived experience is apart from that rare happenstance, literally no one's life truly unfolds as if they are thusly cosseted. Yet we are supposed to be drawn to god because he promises to lavish us with such care?
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Originally Posted by illumined
Those studies also assume that the people identifying as Christians outwardly are following as best they can, but this is not always the case. Just because someone doesn't follow the guidance they have been given doesn't invalid the truth of what had been received. Besides the explosion of mental health disorders we're seeing these days isn't a ringing endorsement of secularism.
Maybe the "explosion" of such disorders isn't a ringing endorsement of particular forms of societal organization that extract the last farthing of labor from everyone without providing time, energy or money to actually enjoy life. That's not a function of secularism, but of more specific ideologies. Some of which organized religion is quite supportive of -- some, not so much. I see it as not a theism vs atheism question.
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Originally Posted by illumined
Because God respects your free will, what we do isn't magic, you have to want the Truth to be able to start seeing it. This is what is meant by "eyes to see".
You folks keep forgetting that many, MANY of us reprobates very much wanted this alleged truth and committed ourselves to it wholeheartedly for much of our adult lives. It was only when we came up empty that, to borrow a religious metaphor, the scales fell from our eyes.
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Originally Posted by illumined
God's ultimate goal is for everyone to be with Him, so he works in people's lives to try to bring them to Him while at the same time respecting your ability to choose. It's a very, very fine balancing act.
Speaking only for myself, he could have best respected my ability to choose by fulfilling his side of the bargain. I was forced by circumstances to conclude that wasn't in the offing.
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Originally Posted by illumined
What happens when you can't work anymore? Hard work is virtuous and I'm glad you've found meaning in it, but it's not unchanging and eternal.
I am almost to the point of not being able, or at least not wanting, to work anymore in the fullest sense of the word, but my vocation is also my avocation and besides not all my eggs are in that one basket. I am struck by how many older people have only one identity, often around work, and have developed no other interests or options for themselves.
Of course ... as a self-determined being it isn't impossible I could eventually determine that I don't care to have any more new experiences, but that's a whole other topic. In general people don't think about their mortality or the impermanence of life or the relative insignificance of their own life. I have actively explored all that for a long time, and I think neither too much nor too little of my personal meaning. It suffices for me, and even though in some relatively unimportant ways I have found life to be ... shall we say, unimpressive compared to what I once did, if you do not try to overthink / spiritualize everything and just live and enjoy what is in front of you, life is pretty cool.
With the exception of some brief dabbling with New Ageism when I was young I was a die hard Atheist for most of my life. But some years ago I started seriously questioning this premise. If everything is just a series of coincidences, then what exactly is the point of dealing with any of the challenges I've had to face in my life? It was a slow process, taking several years. Shortly before that time I discovered the Eastern Orthodox church, before I had no idea it even existed. In doing so I felt increasingly drawn towards it. After coronavirus hit in early 2020 I finally accepted Christianity. But then were was the question of which church do I join? The Catholics were out of the question right from the start because of their Papal Infallability doctrine, which left the 40,000 or so Protestant churches.....or the Eastern Orthodox church. I reached out to a few Protestant churches in my area, had one good conversation and attended online one of their services (all the churches were shut down), and was not impressed. I looked to Orthodoxy and never looked back.
Anyone from any background is free to ask me anything, and I will do my best to answer. I'm not a theological expert so I might not be able to answer everything but I'll my best as well as wrapping answering questions around my job's work schedule during the week.
Would you please define "papal infallibility" as you understand it, and explain why it discredits Catholicism for you?
Ok, if there is no God or gods then how does everything happen beyond probability?
If there are gods, where does the material gods are made from come from? If you say gods are immaterial, how do you know that? How does that work? Are immaterial intelligent beings even possible? How do you know that? How does this god just know things?
As for probability, in an infinite ultimate reality, everything possible must have happened or will happen, whether a god exists or not.
Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been busy the last few days.
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Originally Posted by Oakback
I'm not suggesting a reassembling of churches. I'm referring to the body of believers.
But where does the Bible suggest the Body of Christ can be destroyed on Earth?
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Originally Posted by Sonof
When you invoke inescapable logic in support of your claim and then asked to demonstrate this logic, the first thing out of your mouth should never be a question. It must be some kind of argument built on factually true premises and valid logical form.
By asking question instead of presenting an argument you show that you either don't know or cannot imagine how your claim can be wrong, therefore it must be true.
Logically speaking, this is one of the worst ways to make reliable inference man can come up with. It is as flawed reasoning as it gets.
Now back to your question.
There is only one thing beyond probability. It is absolute certainty.
So what you are asking is
if there is no God or gods then how does everything happen with absolute certainty?
That's an easy question to answer.
Never mind everything, I don't know anything that happens with absolute certainty. I am very much not sure if such a thing as absolute certainty exists at all.
And here is the kicker.
Let's see the difference between me and you.
If God or gods exist, how does everything happen with absolute certainty and how can it be demonstrated?
God exists by the things that happen inexplicably, that's where you'll see God working in your life. See the problem here is that what you claim Christianity is bad when people who claim they are Christians don't follow what it teaches and do bad things while claiming Atheism is great, somehow. In reality, Atheism does not have an intrinsic value of life, this is why it's amassed such a huge body count in the 20th century.
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Originally Posted by mordant
Not if you have a valid criteria for accepting or rejecting it. If a "philosophy" (or in this case actually just a standard for what you will or won't afford belief to) is rejected merely because you don't like its implications, then I'd suggest that's not a valid reason. Also, I think you are averse to the implications because you don't fully understand them and have been in fact conditioned to do mischaracterize them.
Well we got rid of eugenics because of it's implications, which were manifested in the Nazi concentration camps. It's hard to underestimate just how popular this line of thinking really was in the early 20th century, there were states with forced sterilization laws. However there are other reasons to jettison it beyond the implications, the biggest of which is the contradictory nature of materialism.
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On what basis do you conclude that is is destructive most of the time? And what do you mean by "revolution"?
Nihilism has been the root cause of the revolutions in the 20th century. When people don't accept the savior they were given, they find another. Nowhere is this more apparent than Soviet Russia. Atheism had full reign and it destroyed their society, you can't look at the horrors the Soviet system produced and claim Atheism isn't destructive, just look at how messed up Russian society is today. Atheism did this.
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I have always been highly ethical and responsible and moral, and nothing has changed because I'm no longer a Christian. If anything, things have improved, because I am in no way doing the right things for the wrong reasons -- to avoid divine retribution, say. I think that has always been my nature anyway. My faith was just a mechanism to take the credit for my ethics away from me.
Your ethics come from Christianity, but regardless I commend you on being a "good person". My question for you, is why did you only ever want to be a good person? And what kind of "divine retribution" do you refer to?
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Your argument would hold more water if we saw some clear relationship between ethical behavior and Christian belief. But we see all sorts of monstrous things both done and approved of in the name of god.
So Christianity is bad because people don't always follow what it teaches and do bad things while Atheism is great because people did follow what it taught and killed tens of millions. It's no coincidence that out of the top 5 mass murderers in history 1 was a pagan, 2 were Atheists, 1 was a neo-pagan, and 1 was a Muslim.
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The doctrine of the utter depravity of man is something I no longer buy, in spite of the mounting atrocities in the world. There are always good actors standing in the breach. Man is capable of utterly depraved and highly noble behaviors. As you say, it is a choice. If a reprobate like me can choose well, then it has nothing to do with god-beliefs.
Utter depravity? Please explain a little more. Different sectarians have different ideas on this so I don't want to assume anything.
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If god is in control then he would BE in control. You wouldn't need him to carve out a special zone of control for you personally. That has nothing to do with free will, it has to do with control, and the (lack of) utility of such control. You want a Guiding Hand; well ... all I can say is, good luck with that.
When you take a cruise, is the captain in charge of the cruise ship, or are you? A very rough analogy to be sure, but it gets my point across.
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Who said anything about god being a dictator? He's supposed to be a protector, provider, confidante, parent-figure, a "friend that sticks closer than a brother", etc etc. When those value propositions are put forward, no one bothers to mention that such a level of interventionism amounts to dictatorship, given that it's conditional on submitting to his "lordship". But what we actually see in lived experience is apart from that rare happenstance, literally no one's life truly unfolds as if they are thusly cosseted. Yet we are supposed to be drawn to god because he promises to lavish us with such care?
It's voluntary submission, God doesn't force you to submit to Him. What God promises is to be transformed, not just for the life in the age to come but even now. If you've ever met someone who has been, you can see the difference.
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Maybe the "explosion" of such disorders isn't a ringing endorsement of particular forms of societal organization that extract the last farthing of labor from everyone without providing time, energy or money to actually enjoy life. That's not a function of secularism, but of more specific ideologies. Some of which organized religion is quite supportive of -- some, not so much. I see it as not a theism vs atheism question.
The contradiction of Atheism is that you have to live as though you had a religion in order to function, one version of this was Communism which made the state into god. When people don't worship God, they find other things to worship. For us in the West that's usually material goods (gotta have that latest iPhone!) but also celebrities, and even ourselves. This is the reason nearly half of Gen Z according to a recent survey have been diagnosed with mental health disorders.
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You folks keep forgetting that many, MANY of us reprobates very much wanted this alleged truth and committed ourselves to it wholeheartedly for much of our adult lives. It was only when we came up empty that, to borrow a religious metaphor, the scales fell from our eyes.
Speaking only for myself, he could have best respected my ability to choose by fulfilling his side of the bargain. I was forced by circumstances to conclude that wasn't in the offing.
The assumption here is that the teachings, the full teaching, was followed in a spirit of obedience and humility. Only the Eastern Orthodox church has the full teaching, and because of that unless you were in it you couldn't have had the full experience. That's not to say that the sectarian churches of various flavors are a complete waste, many can at least encourage you to be a "good person", but none can give you the experience. Your language of a "bargain" is the real problem here. Do you treat your family or friends this way? Transactionally? Jettisoning them if they aren't giving you some goodies? This is the wrong way to approach it.
Always remember, faith comes from the spirit, not the mind.
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I am almost to the point of not being able, or at least not wanting, to work anymore in the fullest sense of the word, but my vocation is also my avocation and besides not all my eggs are in that one basket. I am struck by how many older people have only one identity, often around work, and have developed no other interests or options for themselves.
A great many young people today also find meaning in playing video games all night in their parents' basement. This guy being a classic example, he was 30 and still living with his parents not because housing is expensive and to save money or stuff like that, but because his purpose in life was to play videos games and party, he hadn't had a job since graduating high school. Why wouldn't he? Christian morals are divinely revealed, Atheist morals are invented by men so unless we want to go down the road of someone people are better than others there is no basis to be critical of them.
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Of course ... as a self-determined being it isn't impossible I could eventually determine that I don't care to have any more new experiences, but that's a whole other topic. In general people don't think about their mortality or the impermanence of life or the relative insignificance of their own life. I have actively explored all that for a long time, and I think neither too much nor too little of my personal meaning. It suffices for me, and even though in some relatively unimportant ways I have found life to be ... shall we say, unimpressive compared to what I once did, if you do not try to overthink / spiritualize everything and just live and enjoy what is in front of you, life is pretty cool.
Then why spend so much time on this board raging against the caricature of a God you never knew? You looked for Truth and didn't find it because Truth is experienced, not read about. The main difference between Orthodoxy and Western Christianity can be summed up as encountering God vs reading about God.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Would you please define "papal infallibility" as you understand it, and explain why it discredits Catholicism for you?
Excellent question. I'm just going to quote from Wikipedia which quotes the definition from Vatican I:
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the Roman Pontiff (the Pope alone or with the College of Bishops)
speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, (in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,) he defines a doctrine
concerning faith or morals
to be held by the whole Church.[10]
So basically, the Pope can't be wrong. However no one seriously believed anything like this in the first thousand years of the church. This is a serious problem because it completely contradicts what the church teaches about the Fall of Man, that no one can be perfect except Jesus because Jesus is both God and Man. For me this was only the tip of the iceberg, later I found more issues with their doctrines. Here's a good video that summarizes at least some of the big ones.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
If there are gods, where does the material gods are made from come from? If you say gods are immaterial, how do you know that? How does that work? Are immaterial intelligent beings even possible? How do you know that? How does this god just know things?
As for probability, in an infinite ultimate reality, everything possible must have happened or will happen, whether a god exists or not.
The first part of this is easy, God is uncreated. We only know what we know about God because it's what He has chosen to reveal to us. This is what makes the spiritual writings of Orthodox saints so powerful is that it's not grasping in the dark, it's from their encounters with God Himself.
Last edited by illumined; 06-04-2023 at 08:37 PM..
Reason: Trying to fix this wonky Youtube embedded link issue
But where does the Bible suggest the Body of Christ can be destroyed on Earth?
Philippians 2:5-11 tells us Jesus took on human form so he could be killed (although it does not say where his death took place).
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Originally Posted by illumined
Nihilism has been the root cause of the revolutions in the 20th century. When people don't accept the savior they were given, they find another. Nowhere is this more apparent than Soviet Russia.
Atheism had full reign and it destroyed their society, you can't look at the horrors the Soviet system produced and claim Atheism isn't destructive, just look at how messed up Russian society is today. Atheism did this.
No, that Stalin was an atheist who wore trousers does not mean atheism or wearing trousers was the problem. Only 0.5% of the victims of Stalin were on religious grounds. He also killed or imprisoned atheists, socialists, other communists, members of the military, poets, writers, actors, usw.
You do not seem too illumined about Stalinist Russia.
You also do not seem too illumined about modern, Christian Russia run by a Christian power mad dictator, neither.
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Originally Posted by illumined
Your ethics come from Christianity, but regardless I commend you on being a "good person". My question for you, is why did you only ever want to be a good person? And what kind of "divine retribution" do you refer to?
No, Christian ethics is a poor shadow of it's Greek predecessors. You do not seem too illumined about ethics.
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Originally Posted by illumined
The first part of this is easy, God is uncreated.
This is just the usual mantra that does not answer any of my questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by illumined
We only know what we know about God because it's what He has chosen to reveal to us. This is what makes the spiritual writings of Orthodox saints so powerful is that it's not grasping in the dark, it's from their encounters with God Himself.
The orthodox saints said it, therefore it is true does not seem too illumined.
The contradiction of Atheism is that you have to live as though you had a religion in order to function, one version of this was Communism which made the state into god.
So to not believe in gods we must believe in gods? Stop reading Turek.
I think you misunderstand how our ecclesiology operates, there are multiple jurisdictions, of which the Russian Orthodox Church is just one of them. But while it's not independent of the rest of the church, there is no equivalent to the Roman Catholic Pope, that was one of their many theological innovations. Jurisdictions are divided into Patriarchates, but one does not have the ability to interfere with another. There is no head except Jesus Christ.
Anyone from any background is free to ask me anything, and I will do my best to answer. I'm not a theological expert so I might not be able to answer everything but I'll my best as well as wrapping answering questions around my job's work schedule during the week.
Okay. Why do you think you're so informed and knowledgeable, and somehow more wise than most?
I'll always prefer those who admit that they know little (but seek to know much). Those who think they are so intelligent are the worst to listen too. Their "mental glass" is full, and there's no room for more knowledge and understanding.
No one here is an expert. No one is better than anyone else.
Philippians 2:5-11 tells us Jesus took on human form so he could be killed (although it does not say where his death took place).
No, that Stalin was an atheist who wore trousers does not mean atheism or wearing trousers was the problem. Only 0.5% of the victims of Stalin were on religious grounds. He also killed or imprisoned atheists, socialists, other communists, members of the military, poets, writers, actors, usw.
You do not seem too illumined about Stalinist Russia.
You also do not seem too illumined about modern, Christian Russia run by a Christian power mad dictator, neither.
No, Christian ethics is a poor shadow of it's Greek predecessors. You do not seem too illumined about ethics.
This is just the usual mantra that does not answer any of my questions.
The orthodox saints said it, therefore it is true does not seem too illumined.
The persecution of the church happened before, during and after Stalin. In fact much of the initial machine gunning of priests/monks and dynamiting of churches happened under Lenin.
Your Greek ethics assertion is problematic for many reasons but one of them is that it was a crime not to pay sufficient respect to the gods. That's quite a contradiction there.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
So to not believe in gods we must believe in gods? Stop reading Turek.
No. It's to live in a system as though it was a religion, this is what Marxism was.
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Originally Posted by eddie gein
So which one is your patriarch?
And do you all have an arch rival patriarchate?
The Ecumenical Patriarchate, all the Greek churches in America are under that jurisdiction. There are many other patriarchs such as Antioch, Serbia, etc. Officially the Ecumenical patriarch is the first among equals, but that last part is key. He doesn't have control over any of the others and can't ex-cathedra like the Popes. Are there disputes between the various patriarchs? Sure, the people in the church are not perfect. This has happened before and will likely happen again.
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