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They are related. There are victims who have forgiven their attacker. So there is revenge and forgiveness, both related to seeking justice. Justice awarded by a system devised by imperfect humans is also imperfect and can be injustice. execution and imprisonment of innocent people are all too common. sometimes the guilty goes free. pretending that seeking justice is not revenge is baloney. what is crime itself is decided by a system unique to the culture. justice is a concept.
let me reflect back one of your favorite sayings. get a mirror.
BTW you do pretty well for an "ESL person". That particular word substitution could have well been down to your spell-checker anyway.
Oh, I was ironic. I made it through American university and been practice manager for several companies for years. I do fine. I'm just very "unorthodox in American way". That's about it. total lack of political correctness. Makes me sick.
Anyhow. Was driving to work and I like to use that time, as thinking exercise.
So back to your desire to have justice.
human justice is faulty, to put nicely. Penitentiary system has not fixed anything, only made things worse, and few odd examples only prove the general rule. You go to prison as a criminal, you leave it as hardened one. Courts and judges are historically corrupt and unjust, corrupt either by money or by political/ideological preferences, or out of fear. About the only incorruptible judges, known to history, always were enlightened monarchs, few them to be. King Solomon, for example. That's just to lick on the surface of it.
Karma, as the principle of justice, is just and can not be corrupted. There is no judge involved. Attorney can not win a case being a silver tongued bird. There is no unqualified and opinionated jury, to make a wrong decision. It can't be bribed. One, how did karma, action, bears full weight of its responsibility. Such action or, more so, thought that led to that action as, any action, is preceded by a thought and, if it is of any moral consequence, will be weighed by one's conscience, becomes a seed, a germ, to a future action, that one, who issued that thought, or did not discard it, per conscience indication, will be subject to, for educational purpose.
In a very very basic principle, it is teaching a mindless mouse that, if you keep turning to the left in a specific nook in maze, you will get shocked and it will hurt. except that mice learn much faster than humans. The entire karma principle and mechanics are based on that thought is not a chimera, that appears and disappears but, on principle of thought existing, until it is resolved, balanced, by one, who issued it. Thought creates imbalance in the spheres, if it is charged with potential energy. Spheres tend to stay in balance and thoughts disturb them. then, spheres do what is needed, to bring everything back to balance. The more charged that thought is - say, difference between envying someone who has ten bucks, while to have quarter and, murdering someone - the more "energetic" the balancing process will be.
Basically, one who issues and unbalanced thought, forges a bullet, he will be shot with later. The larger the energy potential in that bullet, the larger the impact will be.
This answers the puzzle about the perception that Buddhists are supposed to be passive. Passivity has often caused loss of life and even loss of country. Passivity sometimes causes divorce and sometimes allows child or spousal abuse. Passivity is often not a good thing. The question is, at least to me, what price is one willing to pay – including bap – for not being passive or for doing other things that may be necessary, but negative? That is the earning of karma, bap or bun.
Again, just some of my thoughts.
What I have found is that when somebody feels compelled to put a person in their place, chances are they suffer in areas of their life that could be meaningful to them. There are multiple reasons why a person may make a poor choice, yet, they are treated in a very rough manner by somebody trying to do the right thing.
To be honest, I am not concerned about the relationship with the person trying to stop something bad from happening and the person causing harm. However, if assumptions are being made on the spot about a person you are not close to, chances are that it is happening in relationships that should be meaningful. That is why there might be a feeling of collecting bap for trying to do good.
yes, exactly.
One of the movers and shakers of Indian independence was Dr. Ambedkar, a Buddhist, a revolutionary, and the cheif framer of the Indian Constitution making it a secular democracy. He did not achieve that by being passive. Buddhism is about non-violence and that does not come about for anyone by being passive. It is an active stance to resist violence.
Equating non-violence to passivity is for those who only know violence.
In theory? May be.
In reality? Absolutely not.
The absolutely brutal genocide launched on the Rohingya community by the Buddhist army of Myanmar, tells us Buddhists could be worst than animals. I mean, the amount of heart wrenching violence these Buddhists did, is beyond words.
Notice…these are a few of my thoughts about karma. I’m not expressing any official view of karma in any aspect of Buddhism. They’re my thoughts. Heck, half the posters on this forum make up stuff all the time; now it’s my turn. And this is what I think now. It may not be what I think six months or a year from now.
First off, and this has been my position for a very long time: karma is not some type of cosmic justice system. That is a somewhat pop Western view of karma that seems to be derived from christian thinking. In my view – and this is traditional Buddhist thinking for some Buddhists – karma is merely cause and effect. Do good things and you’re likely to find yourself in situations where good things are more likely to happen to you. Do bad things, hang with bad people, and more negative things are more likely to happen to you.
In Thai Buddhism, you might say that there are a set of scales seeking balance. On one side of the scales are things that one does that are good and create merit – “bun”. On the other side of the scales are things that are “evil”, or at least negative – “bap”. Okay, I can buy that concept.
But when I go back and connect that to The Noble Eightfold Path (Right understanding, Right thought, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration) and the concept that one should be held responsible for things done with intent (either bun or bap), I come to the conclusion that one EARNS bun or bap, and that brings in the factor of deciding what PRICE one can accept with a decision to do something that would appear to earn one bap (negative karma). This answers the puzzle about the perception that Buddhists are supposed to be passive. Passivity has often caused loss of life and even loss of country. Passivity sometimes causes divorce and sometimes allows child or spousal abuse. Passivity is often not a good thing. The question is, at least to me, what price is one willing to pay – including bap – for not being passive or for doing other things that may be necessary, but negative? That is the earning of karma, bap or bun.
Again, just some of my thoughts.
Thanks, phetaroi. I know little of Buddhism and frankly have not been curious enough to delve into it, but your perception of karma is interesting.
The Eightfold Path also sounds similar to the the book that accompanied my set of Runes, particularly about the need to let right action flow through. The author seems to have been influenced by several spiritual traditions.
The absolutely brutal genocide launched on the Rohingya community by the Buddhist army of Myanmar, tells us Buddhists could be worst than animals. I mean, the amount of heart wrenching violence these Buddhists did, is beyond words.
Buddha did not teach passivity, which is what was claimed in posts above. Buddha taught karuna, compassion and non-violence. This is not passivity, they are an active stance of resistance to violence.
What Buddha taught and what Buddhists do are two different and separate things. The teaching belongs to Buddha, the action always, always rests with the Doer. This is something many atheists in this forum seem unable, or reluctant, to understand.
This is karma, action that will bear fruit today or another day, but will definitely fructify.
While Buddhists in Myanmar, as well as Sri Lanka, and in other places have been brutal, there are also cases of monks immolating themselves in protest of government violence, such as Thich Quang Duc publicly burning himself to death in a plea for President Ngo Dinh Diem to show “charity and compassion” to all religions. Non-violent protest against power and injustice has yielded results ultimately, in India, South Africa, in the USA.
What I have found is that when somebody feels compelled to put a person in their place, chances are they suffer in areas of their life that could be meaningful to them. There are multiple reasons why a person may make a poor choice, yet, they are treated in a very rough manner by somebody trying to do the right thing.
To be honest, I am not concerned about the relationship with the person trying to stop something bad from happening and the person causing harm. However, if assumptions are being made on the spot about a person you are not close to, chances are that it is happening in relationships that should be meaningful. That is why there might be a feeling of collecting bap for trying to do good.
I understand what you're saying, but it gets a little confusing becasue in Buddhism much weight is given to intent.
The absolutely brutal genocide launched on the Rohingya community by the Buddhist army of Myanmar, tells us Buddhists could be worst than animals. I mean, the amount of heart wrenching violence these Buddhists did, is beyond words.
It's rare for me to agree on almost anything with cb, but I think she was right in her post (unless I'm misunderstanding what she is saying).
You're mixing 2 very different things.
No one has said that Buddhists don't do violent things. Buddhists fail just like the people in any other religion fail. But not being passive and being violent are 2 different things.
And as to the situation in Burma (which is what I will ALWAYS call it), it's disgusting, but no worse than periods in christian history. So becareful who you are calling "worst than animals".
Buddha did not teach passivity, which is what was claimed in posts above. Buddha taught karuna, compassion and non-violence. This is not passivity, they are an active stance of resistance to violence.
What Buddha taught and what Buddhists do are two different and separate things. The teaching belongs to Buddha, the action always, always rests with the Doer. This is something many atheists in this forum seem unable, or reluctant, to understand.
This is karma, action that will bear fruit today or another day, but will definitely fructify.
While Buddhists in Myanmar, as well as Sri Lanka, and in other places have been brutal, there are also cases of monks immolating themselves in protest of government violence, such as Thich Quang Duc publicly burning himself to death in a plea for President Ngo Dinh Diem to show “charity and compassion” to all religions. Non-violent protest against power and injustice has yielded results ultimately, in India, South Africa, in the USA.
Well, no, it doesn't "definitely fructify". That's a huge topic of discussion where some people seem to never pay a karmic price for bad behavior. In fact, some people seem to thrive even after terrible transgressions. At best we can say that this concept of 'definitely fructifying'...well, the jury is out on that.
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