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Old 11-15-2023, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
Reputation: 9910

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Slavery is a profound and powerful manifestation of the human condition. We are all born slaves, and we will forever be slaves. The question is: slaves to whom or what? Paul had no problem calling himself a slave of Christ, and what better master could anyone have? No man can ever truly be his own master. That is an illusion-- it's the original lie of the serpent in the garden.
He who cannot master himself is condemned to seek out others to be his master.

I don't deny that most of us fail. That is why the world is turning rapidly back towards fascism, undoing a century of human progress.

But our overlords never show us the promised land, either. Authoritarian regimes are never sustainable, and ultimately collapse, usually after turning on its subjects. We always end up in a mess of man's making, and man is obliged to rise from the ashes and undo it. Only for a few generations later, to have their descendants undo it yet again, forgetting the lessons of history.

So it goes.

Metaphorically speaking, it proves the old adage, "god has no grandchildren". Each of us must find our own way toward truth ... or not, as the case may be.

It them becomes critical to correctly determine one's epistemology -- what truth is, and how one comes by it. For you it is handed down through a hierarchy you believe to be established by god himself. For me the only true touchstone to live by is empathy, compassion and love, grounded in real-world benefits and harms to actual people. Never the twain shall meet, because god's edicts aren't examinable or questionable. That which can't be examined or questioned results in people doing things for reasons disconnected from actual results; it's all about pleasing someone else who decides for you what is right and wrong.

 
Old 11-15-2023, 05:20 PM
 
2,411 posts, read 1,443,647 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
That's not accurate, as the primary justification.

They wanted to continue their economic system - which included slavery - because it was so predominant. They had invested so much in that approach, and didn't want to change or disrupt it. That's the main reason they fought for it; not because of alleged statements in the Bible.
I agree.
 
Old 11-15-2023, 06:22 PM
 
Location: equator
11,046 posts, read 6,632,416 times
Reputation: 25565
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
That begs the question: Why would a person who has achieved nirvana spend time with us rubes on city-data?
Same reason all the self-described millionaires spend hours on C-D, lol.
 
Old 11-15-2023, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,765 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
That begs the question: Why would a person who has achieved nirvana spend time with us rubes on city-data?
You seem to have zero sense of humor.
 
Old 11-15-2023, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Alabama
13,611 posts, read 7,911,419 times
Reputation: 7093
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You seem to have zero sense of humor.
What? After all we've been through together??

 
Old 11-15-2023, 08:08 PM
 
63,777 posts, read 40,038,426 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
He who cannot master himself is condemned to seek out others to be his master.

I don't deny that most of us fail. That is why the world is turning rapidly back towards fascism, undoing a century of human progress.

But our overlords never show us the promised land, either. Authoritarian regimes are never sustainable, and ultimately collapse, usually after turning on its subjects. We always end up in a mess of man's making, and man is obliged to rise from the ashes and undo it. Only for a few generations later, to have their descendants undo it yet again, forgetting the lessons of history.

So it goes.

Metaphorically speaking, it proves the old adage, "god has no grandchildren". Each of us must find our own way toward truth ... or not, as the case may be.

It then becomes critical to correctly determine one's epistemology -- what truth is, and how one comes by it. For you, it is handed down through a hierarchy you believe to be established by god himself. For me, the only true touchstone to live by is empathy, compassion, and love, grounded in real-world benefits and harms to actual people. Never the twain shall meet, because god's edicts aren't examinable or questionable. That which can't be examined or questioned results in people doing things for reasons disconnected from actual results; it's all about pleasing someone else who decides for you what is right and wrong.
This ^^^^^
 
Old 11-15-2023, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Alabama
13,611 posts, read 7,911,419 times
Reputation: 7093
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
because god's edicts aren't examinable or questionable.
Sure they are. It's simply a matter of asking: do they work? How many of us have really and truly put them to the test? Doing so requires much personal sacrifice and pain that most aren't willing to undertake. "Take up your cross and follow Me". How many of us are like the rich young ruler who walked away sorrowful?
 
Old 11-16-2023, 03:30 AM
 
4,190 posts, read 2,501,136 times
Reputation: 6571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Nice. With a twist of words and a law, and human could magically be changed into inorganic matter. Just material property

This thread is bringing out some very troubling sentiments and mindsets among people, defending slavery in any form. Not a single justified reason has been mentioned yet, nor can any come. And yet look at what people are saying and attempting.

And no, as a southerner myself, slavery can only be considered hideous and disgusting. No human being can ever be anything less than a human being.
Yes, slavery was hideous, beyond words. Some of it, such as the breeding of slaves, is so hideous, its difficult to wrap our heads around it. I am not defending it, only explaining how they did and could use the Bible in a perverse way. It's akin to other things in the Bible which are interpreted and twisted for all kinds of reasons.

One has to go back to their view however repugnant it is to understand how they justified it as the economic lynchpin of the entire society. It wasn't always that way. (Even at the time of the Revolution it was seen as a "necessary" evil and owners struggled with how to free them; it was expensive and time consuming, both for the owners and the slaves who would immediately become tithable. Robert Carter III, 1728-1804, one of the richest men in VA, freed his 500+/- slaves, and it took him decades to comply with the law and pay for it; Washington, always cash poor, struggled and could not afford it though he tried. Some tried to mitigate its horror like (Lt.) Governor Fauquier whose will stipulated that his slaves could refuse to be sold to certain people.)

By the 1840's, the major Protestant denominations had split over the Biblical "justification" for slavery. Jews went with where their congregations were located and the Roman Catholic Church in the south was contorting itself to reconcile slavery with Pope Gregory XVI's In supremo apostolatus

Last edited by webster; 11-16-2023 at 04:23 AM..
 
Old 11-16-2023, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Virginia
10,089 posts, read 6,420,662 times
Reputation: 27653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
That's not accurate, as the primary justification.

They wanted to continue their economic system - which included slavery - because it was so predominant. They had invested so much in that approach, and didn't want to change or disrupt it. That's the main reason they fought for it; not because of alleged statements in the Bible.
Of course the economic system was the primary reason for continuing slavery. However, verses in the Bible were used as justification for the morality of the practice, so that slavery could be viewed in accordance with Biblical principles. The same was done for forbidding interracial marriage through the 1950's in Virginia until the Loving case. Unfortunately, the Bible has been used, or rather misused, to justify many human rights abuses.
 
Old 11-16-2023, 10:06 AM
 
4,190 posts, read 2,501,136 times
Reputation: 6571
Exactly and once the Almighty is brought in as justification, there is little room for compromise.
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