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Old 11-16-2023, 12:22 PM
 
7,364 posts, read 4,149,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
All their would be arguments become moot when we realize the OT ordered against enslaving brothers and sisters. And we know if a slave is injured, they are to be set free on account of their injury. There's a lot American slave masters ignored concerning OT.
First, no 19th century slave owner thought that slaves were their brothers or sisters.

Still, why bring up a topic when no Christian still believes slavery is justifiable? Perhaps this thread belongs in a history forum.

The slaves had always existed in Africa. It's external slave trade began in 900 AD with Islam. The slave trade continued for six hundred years before Europeans began importing slaves to the Americans.

Islam used their Koran to justify slavery just as Christians used the OT.

Thankfully, the British Christian Parliament sent the Royal Navy out to patrol the coast of Africa to prevent slave ships traffic.

Quote:
The Blockade of Africa began in 1808 after the United Kingdom outlawed the Atlantic slave trade, making it illegal for British ships to transport slaves. The Royal Navy immediately established a presence off Africa to enforce the ban, called the West Africa Squadron.

The 1807 Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves abolished the intercontinental slave trade in the United States but was not widely enforced.

From 1819, some effort was made by the United States Navy to prevent the slave trade. This mostly consisted of patrols of the shores of the Americas and in the mid-Atlantic, the latter being largely unsuccessful due to the difficulty of intercepting ships mid-ocean.

As part of the Webster–Ashburton Treaty of 1842, it was agreed that both countries would work together on the abolition of the slave trade, which was deemed piracy, and to continue the blockade of Africa. US Navy involvement continued until the beginning of the American Civil War, in 1861. The following year, the Lincoln administration gave the UK full authority to intercept US ships.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa

Between 1807 and 1860, the Royal Navy, West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels. 2,000 British sailors died in battles and diseases in stopping the slave trade.

So Christians stopped Islamic slave trades as well as their own.

 
Old 11-16-2023, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in Time
501 posts, read 169,478 times
Reputation: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
He who cannot master himself is condemned to seek out others to be his master.

I don't deny that most of us fail. That is why the world is turning rapidly back towards fascism, undoing a century of human progress.

But our overlords never show us the promised land, either. Authoritarian regimes are never sustainable, and ultimately collapse, usually after turning on its subjects. We always end up in a mess of man's making, and man is obliged to rise from the ashes and undo it. Only for a few generations later, to have their descendants undo it yet again, forgetting the lessons of history.

So it goes.

Metaphorically speaking, it proves the old adage, "god has no grandchildren". Each of us must find our own way toward truth ... or not, as the case may be.

It them becomes critical to correctly determine one's epistemology -- what truth is, and how one comes by it. For you it is handed down through a hierarchy you believe to be established by god himself. For me the only true touchstone to live by is empathy, compassion and love, grounded in real-world benefits and harms to actual people. Never the twain shall meet, because god's edicts aren't examinable or questionable. That which can't be examined or questioned results in people doing things for reasons disconnected from actual results; it's all about pleasing someone else who decides for you what is right and wrong.
Your post simply illustrates one of the great truths of Christianity - i.e., human nature is fundamentally flawed, with a mysterious propensity toward evil. No human efforts, individual or collective, will ever rise above this. Only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can accomplish a transformation, and even that must inevitably be imperfect and incomplete until God's kingdom is fully realized.

I don't know the context in which you have encountered the phrase "God has no grandchildren," but I have not encountered it in any context suggesting the individual must find his or her own way to truth. The typical context is that God has only children, meaning those who have a direct relationship with Him. There can be no "grandchild" relationship with God through someone else.

All humans, including you, are incapable of living with "empathy, compassion and love" because this is simply not human nature. Some may live with more (or less) empathy, compassion and love than others, but this is simply not human nature. This is why even the most well-intentioned, small-scale utopian experiments always fail.

So long as humans define for themselves what constitutes empathy, compassion and love, the results will be as they have always been - hideous. A humanistic society is a fantasy that ignores the realities of human nature. Atheistic regimes are inevitably barbaric, the worst possible examples of human nature run amuck. Only a God-decreed morality has any hope of success, and then only to the extent that the Holy Spirit is allowed to exercise His transforming power.
 
Old 11-16-2023, 07:30 PM
 
4,193 posts, read 2,516,403 times
Reputation: 6573
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
First, no 19th century slave owner thought that slaves were their brothers or sisters.

Still, why bring up a topic when no Christian still believes slavery is justifiable? Perhaps this thread belongs in a history forum.

The slaves had always existed in Africa. It's external slave trade began in 900 AD with Islam. The slave trade continued for six hundred years before Europeans began importing slaves to the Americans.

Islam used their Koran to justify slavery just as Christians used the OT.

Thankfully, the British Christian Parliament sent the Royal Navy out to patrol the coast of Africa to prevent slave ships traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa

Between 1807 and 1860, the Royal Navy, West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels. 2,000 British sailors died in battles and diseases in stopping the slave trade.

So Christians stopped Islamic slave trades as well as their own.
While the British seized vessels and the US Navy made a half hearted attempt to, slavery flourished in the American south. Slave breeding became an industry and a major source of revenue in VA and MD. British investors and the British government were sympathetic to the Confederate cause and heavily invested in Confederate bonds. Those bonds were based on the value of slaves as property. After the fall of the Confederacy, those bonds took on a life of their own as owners continued to try to get money for them. Known now as Zombie Bonds, they are still floating around on the collector's market.

Meanwhile, British shipbuilders made $ by building ships for the Confederate Navy. The CSS Alabama was the most famous.

Last edited by webster; 11-16-2023 at 07:38 PM..
 
Old 11-16-2023, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,024 posts, read 13,501,689 times
Reputation: 9952
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
Your post simply illustrates one of the great truths of Christianity - i.e., human nature is fundamentally flawed, with a mysterious propensity toward evil.
There is nothing mysterious about it. Selfishness and altruism are always in tension. Most people have the mirror neurons that enable empathy but only for their own family / tribe. It's expandable once you understand the importance and benefits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
Only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can accomplish a transformation, and even that must inevitably be imperfect and incomplete until God's kingdom is fully realized.
When you can demonstrate that Christians have significantly better moral outcomes and better character on average than non-Christians, we might have something to talk about here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
I don't know the context in which you have encountered the phrase "God has no grandchildren," but I have not encountered it in any context suggesting the individual must find his or her own way to truth. The typical context is that God has only children, meaning those who have a direct relationship with Him. There can be no "grandchild" relationship with God through someone else.

All humans, including you, are incapable of living with "empathy, compassion and love" because this is simply not human nature. Some may live with more (or less) empathy, compassion and love than others, but this is simply not human nature. This is why even the most well-intentioned, small-scale utopian experiments always fail.

So long as humans define for themselves what constitutes empathy, compassion and love, the results will be as they have always been - hideous. A humanistic society is a fantasy that ignores the realities of human nature. Atheistic regimes are inevitably barbaric, the worst possible examples of human nature run amuck. Only a God-decreed morality has any hope of success, and then only to the extent that the Holy Spirit is allowed to exercise His transforming power.
By your own argument then, you consider yourself incapable of empathy, compassion and love. I am sad to hear it.

You CAN master yourself, just as you can master any skill or knowledge topic with sufficient practice. Many people do not believe this, and there are always people who will tell you that you need whatever they're selling to make it happen for you. In fact they will happily tell you what a morally bereft worm you are, so as to increase the sense of inadequacy. This despite that Christians criminals exist, including Christian sexual predators, while at the same time, atheists like myself have been spotted obeying the law, paying their taxes, and respecting other's rights.

As to "atheistic regimes" you are confusing authoritarians and fascist regimes with regimes that have atheist leaders ... as if theist leaders never run those kinds of countries. Indeed, right here in the US, many fundamentalist Christians find democratic norms inconvenient and long for a theocracy imposed via a fascist state.
 
Old 11-17-2023, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,798 posts, read 4,996,217 times
Reputation: 2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
Your post simply illustrates one of the great truths of Christianity - i.e., human nature is fundamentally flawed, with a mysterious propensity toward evil. No human efforts, individual or collective, will ever rise above this. Only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can accomplish a transformation, and even that must inevitably be imperfect and incomplete until God's kingdom is fully realized.

I don't know the context in which you have encountered the phrase "God has no grandchildren," but I have not encountered it in any context suggesting the individual must find his or her own way to truth. The typical context is that God has only children, meaning those who have a direct relationship with Him. There can be no "grandchild" relationship with God through someone else.

All humans, including you, are incapable of living with "empathy, compassion and love" because this is simply not human nature. Some may live with more (or less) empathy, compassion and love than others, but this is simply not human nature. This is why even the most well-intentioned, small-scale utopian experiments always fail.

So long as humans define for themselves what constitutes empathy, compassion and love, the results will be as they have always been - hideous.
What an inane fantasy world you inhabit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
A humanistic society is a fantasy that ignores the realities of human nature.
Then you are doing it wrong. Clearly you are reading the wrong philosophers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
Atheistic regimes are inevitably barbaric, the worst possible examples of human nature run amuck.
No, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin, they were all men who wore trousers. By your logic, regimes ran by pant wearing men are inevitably barbaric, the worst possible examples of human nature run amuck.

An alleged intellect like yours should not be making the usual inane cüm hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Darby View Post
Only a God-decreed morality has any hope of success, and then only to the extent that the Holy Spirit is allowed to exercise His transforming power.
Do you have evidence for your inane assertion?
 
Old 11-17-2023, 07:08 AM
 
2,435 posts, read 1,452,676 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
First, no 19th century slave owner thought that slaves were their brothers or sisters.

Still, why bring up a topic when no Christian still believes slavery is justifiable? Perhaps this thread belongs in a history forum.

The slaves had always existed in Africa. It's external slave trade began in 900 AD with Islam. The slave trade continued for six hundred years before Europeans began importing slaves to the Americans.

Islam used their Koran to justify slavery just as Christians used the OT.

Thankfully, the British Christian Parliament sent the Royal Navy out to patrol the coast of Africa to prevent slave ships traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa

Between 1807 and 1860, the Royal Navy, West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels. 2,000 British sailors died in battles and diseases in stopping the slave trade.

So Christians stopped Islamic slave trades as well as their own.

Of course they didn't think the slaves were their brothers and sisters. I'm saying according to the Scriptures, they were in gross violation.
 
Old 11-17-2023, 02:14 PM
 
4,193 posts, read 2,516,403 times
Reputation: 6573
In Sept. 1667, the VA legislature closed the loophole which may have allowed Christian slaves to be freed (ACT III. An act declaring that baptisme of slaves doth not exempt them from bondage. https://vagenweb.org/hening/vol02-13.htm

In the 1720's, the bishop of London Edmund Gibson encouraged converting slaves to Christianity, and a few slave owners followed the recommendation, but the surviving documents don't suggest they were seen as brothers and sisters in Christ. But that would not be surprising. A Church of England adherent would most likely not consider a Roman Catholic a brother or sister in Christ.

By the 1770's, the message of equality before the Almighty was being preached by many Black preachers and even some white preachers; some slaveowners freed their slaves in response. (It was a long and expensive process.). The state responded differently however by limiting the number of slaves who could congregate, even for religious reasons.

For more on how Virginians responded to Bishop Gibson, an overview is: https://www.csus.edu/college/arts-le...y-virginia.pdf

Last edited by webster; 11-17-2023 at 02:27 PM..
 
Old 11-18-2023, 06:12 AM
 
2,435 posts, read 1,452,676 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by webster View Post
In Sept. 1667, the VA legislature closed the loophole which may have allowed Christian slaves to be freed (ACT III. An act declaring that baptisme of slaves doth not exempt them from bondage. https://vagenweb.org/hening/vol02-13.htm

In the 1720's, the bishop of London Edmund Gibson encouraged converting slaves to Christianity, and a few slave owners followed the recommendation, but the surviving documents don't suggest they were seen as brothers and sisters in Christ. But that would not be surprising. A Church of England adherent would most likely not consider a Roman Catholic a brother or sister in Christ.

By the 1770's, the message of equality before the Almighty was being preached by many Black preachers and even some white preachers; some slaveowners freed their slaves in response. (It was a long and expensive process.). The state responded differently however by limiting the number of slaves who could congregate, even for religious reasons.

For more on how Virginians responded to Bishop Gibson, an overview is: https://www.csus.edu/college/arts-le...y-virginia.pdf

I appreciate you!
 
Old 11-24-2023, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,024 posts, read 13,501,689 times
Reputation: 9952
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Still, why bring up a topic when no Christian still believes slavery is justifiable? Perhaps this thread belongs in a history forum.
While I agree that few Christians STILL believe in slavery, it's a ghastly obscenity that any ever DID.

The OP brought it up because the Bible does not take a moral stand against such a drop-dead obvious evil and so they had to justify it while hiding behind dainty little moral equivocations made easier because it's kind of an abstract debate -- slavery has been illegal for a long time now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
The slaves had always existed in Africa. It's external slave trade began in 900 AD with Islam. The slave trade continued for six hundred years before Europeans began importing slaves to the Americans.

Islam used their Koran to justify slavery just as Christians used the OT.

Thankfully, the British Christian Parliament sent the Royal Navy out to patrol the coast of Africa to prevent slave ships traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Africa

Between 1807 and 1860, the Royal Navy, West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1600 ships involved in the slave trade and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard these vessels. 2,000 British sailors died in battles and diseases in stopping the slave trade.

So Christians stopped Islamic slave trades as well as their own.
No, secular governments stopped the slave trades. We can debate to what extent those governments were moved to action by Christians but from what I know of the political debates about slavery in both the UK and the US, abolitionists were dismayed to find no specific Biblical argument against it and so had difficulty convincing Christians who were in favor of it or involved in it, to repent. They had to resort to arguing from first principles such as love thy neighbor. And we know how hypocritical some Christians can be when they need to talk about things like love but still want to justify very un-loving attitudes about other humans, or just preserve bigoted preconceptions about others.
 
Old 11-24-2023, 04:14 AM
 
4,193 posts, read 2,516,403 times
Reputation: 6573
It's easy to say that slavery has always existed, but again, American slavery was unique. It was hereditary, race based and in order to provide more slaves in the US after importation stopped, slave breeding became a major source of income in VA. In a major twist of legal tradition, the status of the child followed the mother not the father. This also enabled an owner to breed slaves and then sell them. The Biblical justification became the mantra in the south after the Revolution, for once the Almighty is used to justify something, there is little turning back.
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