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Old 11-14-2023, 03:53 PM
 
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Some civil slave owner of the time of the bible had slaves that were like family members and got a living working for the family ...... Other slaves never came close to being a family member where the rich people couldn't care less in the days of the bible ......... slavery today is illegal still it goes on with human trafficking which most people tend to ignore, and which comes from people who are never civil or religious...... There a resent film sound of freedom which Hollywood banned which people tend to ignore ....never seen the film, but it is probably true, so it would be horrible
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Old 11-14-2023, 04:00 PM
 
2,369 posts, read 1,421,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Why only slavery? People want to do other things considered a sin, but according to the Bible, your god disallows those, so why would it make an exception for slavery?
Slavery is simply a status. In and of itself, it is not a sin. Just like being a king is a status, politician, common folk, etc. To be a slave is the lowest status. And as I said, it was humanity who wanted these statuses, and God allowed Israel to have it. The sin comes into slavery in how they are treated.


Now to everyone, people would read this and say I'm dressing up slavery, in saying it was just a status. But again I say this is what man wanted. And if this truly bothers anyone, I have to ask why do men accept these statuses today? If we are so morally advanced, why are so many folks living on the streets in America? (Half of all homeless are black Americans. I wonder why that is ) Surely with our advance mindsets and attitudes, we can find a way to eliminate extreme poverty and extreme (stolen) wealth while at it. Cats like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos couldn't be the billionaires they are today without stealing money from their workers and in other ways. Nah, men love their immorality. Many of us wish we were Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. It's this desire for wealth that spurned slavery on in this nation. And the majority in this country loved their middle class and upper class status too much to fight for the slave.


By the way, most don't even know that slavery was never officially abolished in this country. The 13th Amendment states of slavery's abolishment "except as a punishment for crime". WE LOVE OUR STATUSES!!!!! Just throw someone in prison, particularly a black American descendant of slavery, and you have your slave. How many people are fighting to amend that? Give me a break with the morality stuff, I would argue.


All that said, I once again want to point out in the spirit of OT Scripture, God didn't allow for Israel to enslave their own brethren. According to this matter, under the new covenant, Christians are brothers and sisters. Therefore, if the slaves were Christians, and many were (albeit by force for those who came directly from Africa), they should have been set free hands down. I say this to point out no matter how despicable one thinks of OT slavery, America was in gross violiation of the spirit of its laws. Not only should they have set them free, but according to Deuteronomy 15:12-15, they should have received resources after being released!!! Let's read it together.....


If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you must set him free.

AND WHEN YOU RELEASE HIM, DO NOT SEND HIM AWAY EMPTY-HANDED.

You are to furnish him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor, and your winepress. You shall give to him as Yahweh your God has blessed you.

Remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and Yahweh your God redeemed you; that is why I am giving you this command today.




There you have it. Not only did America not release the slaves, their brothers and sisters, they sure as much didn't give them a dime for their troubles! What they did give them was terrorism, to this day. A permanent underclass status.
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Old 11-14-2023, 04:36 PM
 
Location: california
7,300 posts, read 6,888,164 times
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Because of the hardness of their hearts God allowed several things He previously objected to, like divorce.
Men make them selves slaves to wealth or sex or power, or to be under the power of others.
My own relatives were under indenture servitude for over 50 years or more. The courts had to sever the ties.
But if a man wants to be in Gods' perfect will, He will seek Jesus' lordship in their life and seek God's instruction for life.
there's a difference between an academic Christian and one with a living relationship. Matthew 7;21,22,23,
Much as there is a difference between an academic Jew and one that honestly reverences God.
Some people go through the motions in church but their heart is not in it.
Doing good things does not accomplish doing God's will.
Acting on the instruction of the Holy Spirit only Jesus provides, is.
I seriously doubt that God would call me to make a slave of others. However it is possible that I might be called to be a slave of others, that God's will is accomplished, for their sake.
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Old 11-14-2023, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,426 posts, read 24,011,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
That begs the question: Why would a person who has achieved nirvana spend time with us rubes on city-data?
To lead you to rubevanna.
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Old 11-14-2023, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,802 posts, read 13,350,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
A very well thought-out response. I appreciate your thoughts here.

Because of the bolded part on which we agree, I don't believe it's possible for one person to own another person. Slavery entails the ownership of a person's labor, not of the person himself. To caricature slavery as "people owning people" is to reduce the entirety of the human person to his labor and nothing else.

Of course we know from many examples of history that many slavers have attempted and succeeded in going far beyond mere ownership of the slave's labor in imagining themselves to own the slave's body as well. But no slaver has ever succeeded in owning his slave's soul or entire person.
People were sold at auction and slavers held title to slaves. That is a real manifestation of ownership. It is evil and wrong, unambiguously. I conceded the technical point that no one can directly control one's thoughts although I would argue, in the spirit of the novel 1984, that if you are abused and gaslit and tormented enough, even that is up for grabs, as there are certainly ways to break a person's spirit. I did not mention that as a rationalization that somehow slavery doesn't really exist or that people don't really treat other people as chattel. Or that there's any form of slavery that's less unsavory or even noble. Or even that it's somehow healthy to voluntarily submit to slavery, even for a currently benevolent master.

You seem to be arguing bits and pieces of all those things.

Last edited by mordant; 11-14-2023 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 11-14-2023, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,802 posts, read 13,350,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Why only slavery? People want to do other things considered a sin, but according to the Bible, your god disallows those, so why would it make an exception for slavery?
Precisely. God doesn't want people murdering or fornicating and has no problem prohibiting those.
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Old 11-14-2023, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Alabama
13,517 posts, read 7,796,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Precisely. God doesn't want people murdering or fornicating and has no problem prohibiting those.
Slavery is a profound and powerful manifestation of the human condition. We are all born slaves, and we will forever be slaves. The question is: slaves to whom or what? Paul had no problem calling himself a slave of Christ, and what better master could anyone have? No man can ever truly be his own master. That is an illusion-- it's the original lie of the serpent in the garden.
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Old 11-15-2023, 04:09 AM
 
4,136 posts, read 2,436,441 times
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There is a difference between chattel slavery and thinking of ourselves as slaves as part of our human condition. When Edmund Ruffin wrote Slavery and free labor, described and compared / his argument was that people had to work anyway, so slavery was a just part of that equation, so what's the big deal? He also touched religious slavery. https://tile.loc.gov/storage-service...5000/25000.pdf

One of Virginia's main exports in the lead up to the Civil War, was slave breeding. Being bred, having a bag over your head as it was done, is not normally seen as part of the human condition. In VA, there were many slave breeding "farms" the most notorious was Lumpkin's Jail in Richmond, known as Hell's Half Acre.
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Old 11-15-2023, 04:38 AM
 
76 posts, read 19,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post

All that said, how many cultures out there who laws that protected the slaves this well?
Law Of Hammurabi - slavery
117. If a man be in debt and sell his wife, son or daughter, or bind them over to service, for THREE years they shall work in the house of their purchaser of master; in the fourth year they shall be given their freedom.

Vs

Law of the Bible - slavery
Deuteronomy 15
At the end of every SEVEN years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite.

It's obvious that an Israelite and a non-Israelite was better off being a slave under the Law of Hammurabi than being under the Law of the Bible. I'm sure an Israelite slave would agree that being a slave for only 3 years is a lot better than being one for 7 years. As for the non-Israelite, I'm sure that being released from slavery after 3 is a lot better than being a slave tor the rest of their life. Ì
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Old 11-15-2023, 05:44 AM
 
891 posts, read 435,903 times
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I don't go by anything in the old testament. Jesus said to love your neighbor, not enslave them. Much of the criticism of the bible is directed towards the old testament, and it's cringe worthy. Destruction, incest, killing and murder, allegedly flooding the entire earth except for two people and some animals, violence and on and on. Just love your neighbor and go by the teachings of Jesus, which are very few, but go directly to the heart of the matter. Being a Christian is about going by Christ's lessons, there cannot be any Christianity before Jesus (Christ), that is self evident, the very name of the religion is about that.
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