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Old 12-05-2023, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Hickville USA
5,903 posts, read 3,795,328 times
Reputation: 28565

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Well, I believe in my God for a few many reasons. For one, the Bible that is attributed to His inspiration, is still playing a role in the world today. How many ancient religions are just that today? Yet the impact of the Abrahamic faith is still a major player in the world today. Among governments and the people.

Israel was able to come back into their land two times after being expelled. What other ancient group was able to come back after falling apart? (Even one time, much less twice!!!) The greatest ancient societies such as the kingdoms of Babylon, the Mongol Empire, Rome, all fell apart and passed away. Yet this small ancient nation is still thriving? Show me another nation like that. It could be World War III will pop off due to what is going on in Israel right now!

Why? Because of the influence of Scripture. (Of course World War III popping off, many wouldn't consider that a good influence I'm just pointing out how the world is still responding to something that is supposedly like every other religion or man-made belief. This Scripture should have died off long ago, like all the others, if it was just like all the others. Who is driving it's continued existence? Billions of people around the world subcribe to a Jewish God, yet billions are not Jewish. Another billion plus are an extension of the Jewish faith, if we include the Abrahamic faith of Islam)


So that is just one reason why I believe, looking at Israel's existence and influence. I may start another thread at some point that speaks to my God specifically.
Man, this is sincerely hopeless. You are too far in. You hear nothing. You're making these exceptionally long and impossible to read posts yet no one you are preaching to is ignoring you and what you are saying. Most of your responses are coming from non-believers. You don't want to discuss, you want to proselytize.

You worship an ancient book written by men to control the populous. Nothing more than that. If you want to have a conversation with yourself, then don't start threads.

I am willing to discuss and debate, as well as everyone else. You are not. Why do you think that is? Who exactly needs to be saved here? YOU.

 
Old 12-05-2023, 08:50 PM
 
1,094 posts, read 883,802 times
Reputation: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth View Post
Man, this is sincerely hopeless. You are too far in. You hear nothing. You're making these exceptionally long and impossible to read posts yet no one you are preaching to is ignoring you and what you are saying. Most of your responses are coming from non-believers. You don't want to discuss, you want to proselytize.

You worship an ancient book written by men to control the populous. Nothing more than that. If you want to have a conversation with yourself, then don't start threads.

I am willing to discuss and debate, as well as everyone else. You are not. Why do you think that is? Who exactly needs to be saved here? YOU.

Typical rants of an atheist.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,779 posts, read 4,982,520 times
Reputation: 2113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter View Post
Typical rants of an atheist.
Typical non-response by a theist.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 03:39 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,779 posts, read 4,982,520 times
Reputation: 2113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Jeez. I wonder how many hours Post #273 took to compose. And no one's going to take time to read it. Oh well.
Jeez. I wonder how many hours it took to hand carve my Grandfathers chess set when they could have simply bought a mass produced one.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 05:41 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,323,868 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Jeez. I wonder how many hours Post #273 took to compose. And no one's going to take time to read it. Oh well.
I really don't give a damn.

As I pointed out elsewhere -- the only thing you exercise by reading is your mind.

So if you hate reading to the point where posts must be the length of a Tweet, then you are the intellectual equivalent of a couch potato.

And I haven't the time or the patience to deal with people who aren't willing to go deeper in conversation that a stupid Tweet.

So if you don't have the 2 or 3 minutes it might take to read my horribly long post, then ... well. I'd probably get banned if I told you what you can go do with yourself. But it has a lot to do with a place where the sun doesn't shine. Am I crystal f-ing clear?

I am SICK of people like you commenting on the length of my posts. And I have asked NICELY that if you don't want to read it ... DON'T. Just quietly scroll past it. There's NO F-ING NEED TO LEAVE A SNARKY-ASS COMMENT!!!

But being nice and civil doesn't make any goddamn difference around here. People would still rather comment on the post rather than it's content. It's cowardly. It's disingenuous. And it says more about your capacity for intellectual ability than anything about me.

It takes LITERALLY a minute or two to read. I know. Because I re-read my posts to make sure I catch most of the typos and misspellings. So unless you're still reading at a 4th grade level and stumble repeatedly over words with more than two syllables, then yeah, perhaps my posts are far and away too advanced for you. By all means ... DON'T READ IT.

Do you think I'm going to alter my behavior because of your snark? Just what do you hope to accomplish with being a troll? Hmm? You need to go to Twitter where you'll never see anything longer than 244 characters ... and you won't spend a couple of precious minutes reading a longer post. Because, my god, just think of ALL the exciting things you'll miss in those 2 or 3 minutes if you read my post instead!!

I actually wrote this at the very top of my post:

Quote:
Yep. This is a long post. And I make no apologies for it. Discussion forums are for the exploration of deep thoughts and opinions. If you only want to read short sentences or perhaps a paragraph shorter than 244 characters, you might want to give Twitter a try. I know some of you HATE my long posts. That's fine. If you don't like long posts, don't READ them. But don't chastise me for writing them. Be an adult and simply scroll past.
But could Throreau just scroll past like an adult? Noooo, of course not.. He had to toss in a little snark. Like that bratty little child that simply CAN'T sit still at the dinner table. It's just unfortunate that Throeau couldn't be more .... thoreau when reading a damn post.

Last edited by Shirina; 12-06-2023 at 06:05 AM.. Reason: WHY do people even write on discussion forums if their reading comprehension would put them in remedial English?
 
Old 12-06-2023, 05:54 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,323,868 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter View Post
Typical rants of an atheist.
Definition:

Rant /rant/

Verb

To say anything that disagrees with a theist regardless of content, length, or emotional tone.
Any criticism of a believer is considered a rant.

Example:

"I could never be like him and believe in Yahweh."

Noun

A period of time spent expressing an opinion against religion or its followers.

Example:

"Typical rant of an atheist."


For an alternate defintion of rant, see page 349.

History:

The first usage of the word "rant" in this context was used in 2004 on the City-Data forum as a way to handwave or dismiss arguments made by atheists that believers simply couldn't counter. If a believer had no rebuttal or refutation of an atheist's argument, they would simply call it a rant and move on. By dismissing it as a mere valueless rant, believers were able to feel better about themselves after being intellectually bested by a superior argument. Usage of "rant" as a disingenuous cop-out has waned since ~2015 but occasionally rears its head when a believer can't find a different way or reason to dismiss the posts of atheists such as, for example, whining and whinging if a post is too long (i.e. if it takes more than 10 seconds to read). The word "tirade" is sometimes used in place of "rant" however those members have seemed to have left the forum.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 10:06 AM
 
2,417 posts, read 1,448,686 times
Reputation: 480
I'm back for my response Shirina.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
That's a rather odd response for a Christian. Because, as a die-hard atheists, I agree with you. The world is what it is. That's how creation was made, as you say. Of course, as an atheist, I don't believe there actually WAS a creator.

However, if you remove the intelligence and the intent from the universe -- if you acknowledge that there WAS no intelligence or intent behind the formation of the universe or this planet within said universe, then you're absolutely right. The world is what it is - this is just how the world formed.

Therefore, we can say that the universe was NOT fine-tuned for human life given the fact that 99.99% of the universe is fatal to human life -- and none of the thousands of exoplanets discovered thus far are truly suitable for human habitation.

Humans evolved here on earth because it was the one place we know of where humans COULD evolve. Not because a creator made earth for humans to live on. Especially when one understand that, even on planet earth, the bulk of it cannot be used for human habitation. Most of the planet is water. Then you add the arctic, mountain ranges, lakes, deserts, tropical rain forests, volcanic islands, and other places where humans can't really live ... there you go. This is why so much of the population is either starving or, at best, malnurished. Foolish religious proclamations like, "Be fruitful and multiply" were given by shortsighted Bronze Age desert goatherders who had no idea how over-population in the future would strain the very existence of humanity -- and yet there are STILL those who believe we should continue ensuring that every sex act ... EVERY single one ... must have a chance for a baby. Hence this crazy and equally short-sighted campaigns against even birth control much less a woman's right to choose whether or not to be pregnant.

Think of it like a little flower sprouting up between the seems of two cement slabs along a city sidewalk. Was that seem put there by the construction workers for the express reason to allow flowers to grow? No. Of course not. That flower will almost certainly be trampled by pedestrians, picked by a child, or cut by whomever mows the grass. In the same way, earth was not put here for humanity. Instead, we are the flower that grows between the cement slabs -- growing where we CAN grow. Not because we are SUPPOSED to grow here.

No doubt our ancient ancestors asked a lot of questions about why things are they way they are. And they invented religion to explain those questions they simply lacked the knowledge to answer. Why does giving birth hurt so much? Why do we have to farm and labor for our food? Why do people die? Why do people do bad things? Why do snakes slither on the ground? Why ... because ... uh ... some broad ate a forbidden fruit. Yeah. Like ... Like how Pandora opened that box she shouldn't have opened. And she let out all the evil contained therein. Except it wasn't a box, it was a tree. Yeah! And instead of opening a box to let loose sin, we'll say she picked a fruit she wasn't supposed to eat ... sound good? Yeah! Way to go, ripping off Greek mythology to make it uniquely Hebrew!

It's not that I'm responding as a Christian, but this thread was more about the idea of there being a creator god. Now in the OP, I do use Yahweh as an example, but I have refrain from speaking specifically of Him. I wanted this thread to be more of philosophical thought. Seeing that morality would likely be the biggest point many would bring up, I placed my insect killing example in the OP, on how no one sees it a problem of squashing a house spider or other insect we don't want in our home. If we feel as though we have the right to do such, how much more right does the creator have to do what he wills? It's not considered wrong for me to kill the insect, but I didn't create the insect. God created the insect, and if he took the life he gave to the insect, that wouldn't even be considered killing if you think about it. The creator is simply taking back what belonged to him.


So this is my argument. If that is wrong, if the creator is wrong for doing something like that, how much more are we wrong for taking the creature's life? As for human evolution being a better explanation to what we see in the world today, particularly when it comes to Yahweh and all the other gods of various religions, fair enough. Concerning Pandora's Box, Israel did have a history well before the Greeks came riding in. Alexander the Great conquered that area in the late 300 BC time frame, and for Genesis most scholars date it to between 900-600 BC. (Pandora's Box dates around 700 BC) Of course this is neither here nor there, many agree the accounts of God's creation of the world borrows elements from the cultures of the ancient Middle East. What makes Genesis unique is Yahweh wasn't at war with anyone to create the world, there was no battle when the blood of the gods was use to form the land or people etc. It was just God was there, and He formed the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
But this is just the doctrine of "might makes right." It's just the excuse of "I'm god, I do what I want, and if you don't like it, kiss off."

Which misses the concept of a good and moral god by millions of light years. Not even close.

Unfortunately this is one of the big reasons why we have not taken very good care of the planet. Since God didn't bother to create a world conducive to the changes humans obviously want to make, we have these problems like climate change, runaway pollution, over-population, dwindeling natural resources, and the rest of it. And that's just to support a relatively small fraction of the population who live relatively comfortable lives. Imagine the strain on the planet if the other 75% of the population started living like a 1st World American? See the problem?

So either God created a situation where some 1/3rd of humanity must live in almost Stone Age conditions even in the 21st Century so that 1/3rd could live in relative comfort -- or -- there just isn't a god. Foolish commands found in the Bible like "be fruitful and multiply" or "I give you dominion over the earth" has set humanity up for horrific overpopulation and a belief that unfettered reproduction is a human right -- even if it means the global population increases by a billion more every 7 to 10 years.

My point here is that a truly good and just creator god would have taken these things into account and created a world where EVERYONE could live in comfort without irrevocably destroying our planet. But that's not what we see ... is it. So everyone comes up with BS excuses why Yahweh created things as he has -- even though they run headlong into the concept of a "good" and "just" and "fair" god. When even most of planet earth is uninhabitable, much less the rest of the universe.



So it's not necessarily a might makes right argument. Its "creator's authority". If I build something, I have the right to do whatever I see fit concerning it. The only thing that could possibly override that, would be a law outside and over the creator. For instance if I build a robot that genuinely becomes self aware, have feelings, etc., the law of the government may come in and give the robot its own rights. Is there such a governing body outside of the creator?


Then the question of morality comes in. If the creator was good, then he would do this or do that. If he doesn't do this or that, he's not good. Well, the problem with this again arises, do we know enough concerning an ultimate morality to make that judgment? Here is where I bring back my insect analogy. No one goes to jail for killing a house spider. Yet we have a problem with the creator for how he handles creation? Many have said humans aren't spiders, indicating we are of more importance because for whatever various reasoning. Well, the creator would certainly be of more "importance" than every being in the universe. His thinking would be higher, his nature would be higher. So morally speaking, the argument doesn't hold up in this light.


You see many would agree with me its okay to swat a fly, because we don't see the value of flies like we see the value of human life and life closer to humans. (mammals) Yet we can't humble ourselves and say if a higher being exist, if a creator exist, under this same line of morality, it would be alright for him to see us as flies that can be swat. We don't know the ins and outs of morality, the full understanding of what is good and evil. That is to say we don't know the ins and outs of reality. The creator does, if he/she/they exists. That is what you're competing with, that knowledge. Too often we look at the creator as if he is one of us. He would be beyond us.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
And what "purpose" can you ascertain this "creator" has for us? Because IF we were to suppose that we were created for a purpose -- and yet this mysterious god flitted around like humanity's bestest buddy in ancient times, talking to people, interacting with people, even intervening when he didn't get his way (which seemed to happen a lot). Of course his intervention invariably involved wiping out entire cities, committing genocide, murdering people for petty offenses, sending plagues and pestilence -- and all of these things happened, each and every time, when humanity didn't do as they were told.

Again -- it's the "might makes right" doctrine, which is NOT good. Case in point: When God commanded Onan to impregnate his dead brother's wife. Because of that sick and twisted custom that God condoned whereby that's what men had to do -- a man had to commit adultery in order to impregnate his dead brother's wife. I mean ... seriously? And because Onan didn't want to do that, God just got pissy and murdered Onan. This is just one of hundreds of little horrible atrocities whereby ordinary people are forced to do something they have no desire to do. As before -- one cannot claim the creator is good. Not in the least. In fact, he's evil.

And any human being who IS good -- has the right, nay the **responsibility** to criticize evil.



So a lot of your responses concerning morality I believe I answered with what I've written so far, or I gave you my best response. Now concerning Onan, I do want to point out with him specifically, his problem was bearing a son for his brother. He didn't have a problem with having sex with his brother's widow. In fact depending on the original meaning of the translation, it indicates he had sex with Tamar multiple times, and he would "spill his seed" on the ground. The real victim here was Tamar. So Yahweh took out two men who were likely abusing her. (The Bible doesn't say why God found Er evil)


Of course you may say to me if these men were abusing Tamar, why didn't He just force them to do right by her? Why did she have to prostitute herself just to have children? Why were women treated harshly in this patriarchal society, when God could have just established equality across the genders and demand love toward one another? Well, in spite of what many see as a patriarchal system concerning the laws of Moses, still, was that not God demanding the people something? And those laws were broken. So if God judges the people for breaking the laws, even if they be the perfect law we imagine, many would still have a problem with His judgments. According to us, God has no right to tell us what to do. The creator has no right.


Going back to some of the things you mentioned in the world not being perfect for humans, if indeed it was perfect, do you believe all of humanity will just go along with what God tell them to do? If there were those who decided to disobey God, in spite of a perfect world, would you call them evil? At what point does humanity have responsibility for their own actions?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Well ... first one would have to believe there actually IS a creator. I do not believe there is one. But if all I did was repeatedly say, "There is no god" then I would become the broken record. Therefore, my arguments come from within religious belief itself to show how these beliefs make no sense.

Secondly, for those who DO believe in creators, regardless of which one you believe in, I'm not suggesting we CAN override the will of the creator. However, if the creator were truly good, just, and fair -- like we are led to believe -- then we wouldn't HAVE to override the creator's will. Why? Because we would be happy with the way the world actually is -- rather than always having to wish for a better one.

Thirdly, billions of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and every other person who believes in a god try to override the creator's will almost every ... single ... day.

It's called ... prayer.

Because that's what prayer is ... right? It's trying to override the creator's will. If, for example, you pray to a creator that you come home safe from a trip, you are asking this creator, "If you planned on killing me on this trip home, please reconsider and ... let me live? Please?"

IF this creator planned on killing you on your trip home -- and instead you arrive home safe and sound, you just overrode the will of the creator. Yes? Which means that nearly every believer DOES think that, not only CAN they override the will of the creator, they already HAVE at various points in their lives, supersceded the creator's will.



Is prayer truly overriding the creator's will? If the creator wanted to take a person's life (that he owns), we would have to know why in order to fully understand his will. What if the reason why is because they were wicked, like Er and Onan? However, if Onan prayed and sought God's ways, God wouldn't have taken his life, which in this case God's ultimate will was for Er and Onan to not be wicked. To live justly. Since we're talking about Yahweh here, Jesus' model prayer was for God's will to be done. Jesus prayed, "not My will, but Yours be done." A prayer like that is answered. Many people pray all the time, and things don't go the way they wanted. This is not to say everything that happens is God's will.


To your second point, going backwards, if there is a creator, perhaps this is the world he/she/they want, regardless of what we desire. Just because we don't like this world, doesn't mean the creator is good or bad. We are insects compared to the creator. Keep this in mind when speaking of morals.


Perhaps we are living the world we desire, where there seemingly is no god, and that is the problem for some. So we have a taste of a world where no god exists, and it is unbearable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Then you may as well tell the vast majority of god-worshiping adherents not to bother praying. Because it's just "shouting at the wind." The creator will do what it wants and it doesn't matter what you say.

The irony here is -- if one were to believe that prayer has no true purpose and the creator will always do what it wants regardless of what we want, well, that yields precisely the same results as if there were no creator in the first place.

So ... welcome to atheism.



Or, we pray to find out what the creator wants. Get on his/her/their good side. Humble ourselves and receive their reward.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
"Let's show this prehistoric byotch how we do things downtown!"

Funny thing -- eventually those puny little humans sent that antagonist packing! Perhaps the object lesson here is that only WE can change the world for the better. Religion prevents that. All of the progress we have made in the last 2,000 years has come in spite of religion -- not because of it.



Well, if we believe we can send the creator up the river.


Of course my thing may be, we've being doing this science thing for a while, along with all the other contributions in learning how the world works. Still, people hate each other, we still are bent on ruling over one another. We now have the knowledge to help one another. We know it's foolish to do the things empires and nations have done in the past. And yet, we still hoard wealth. We still exploit each other. We still deny each other basic human rights. This is educated people doing these things. We know the earth is the only planet we have for sustaining life, yet the people, THE PEOPLE act foolishly!!! I don't want to hear nothing about politicians or others influencing us to act dumb. In an educated society, we should be able to solve a lot of the problems we face today. Yet we love hating each other. Religions has nothing to do with it. Its just an excuse to do what we want to do.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Well ... actually I don't know that.

Unless you're talking about Eden vs. the world after humanity was expelled. But even then, if God did not create the world of today. Who did?

After all, this is the problem when talking about an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god.

If God had wanted the world to be different than what it is -- then why isn't it? Think of your own self. Let's say you're cooking a nice delicious stew. You want it to taste a certain way -- but it doesn't. However, you have all the needed spices and ingredients to make it taste the way you want it to.

What do you do? Do you just throw yourself on the floor and have a tantrum of defeat? Or do you add those needed spices and ingredients until you have the stew you want? I think we both know the answer to this question -- and you're just a lowly, fallible human with limited power and understanding.

So why would an omni-everything god who can create entire universes with a single spoken word, look at the world and say, "Well darn ... I wanted a different world than this one. But gee whiz, I'm powerless to change it."

Worse still, as an omniscient god, he would have known the outcome of the world even before he created it. Therefore, why would he bother creating the world if he knew it would fly off the rails and become something he didn't want?

No ... when dealing with a poly-omni god like Yahweh, it must be assumed that the world is as it is because that's how Yahweh wanted it. Because ... like with the stew ... why would Yahweh sit there and have a defeated tantrum when he has all the power of an omnipotent being?



We have free will. God can do anything He wants, but in a world where we can choose to love Him back, there is always a chance of some choosing to hate Him. So as we know, Yahweh will do something about the current world, but He's waiting for the full number of those who are returning to Him.


Now, did God know the world would turn out like this, in terms of the choices people would make? I debate He knew. In Genesis 6, we see God is sorrowful in making man on the earth. In other words, perhaps He didn't know. That is an interesting debate. Remember also how God tested Abraham? In Genesis 22:12 it states...........


“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.”.....


So I would argue perhaps God didn't know the choices of mankind before creation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No offense, but that is a horrible argument. It's akin to putting a loaded gun in an empty room filled with children. The parents tell their children, "Alright now ... see that gun lying there? You aren't allowed to play with it." And then, stupidly, the parents leave the room.

When the parents come back later, they find several dead children and an empty gun. Whose fault is it? Because Christianity would claim it was the children's fault for playing with the gun. But any sane, rational person would blame the parents. Why, for the love all that's good, would adults be stupid enough to leave a loaded gun within easy reach of a bunch of children -- when they could have put the gun on a shelf in the closet well out of reach -- and out of the knowledge -- of the children?

Ergo ... WHY would Yahweh create Adam and Eve right next to a tree growing forbidden fruit? WHY would Yahweh allow a talking snake to slither around what was supposed to be paradise? A talking snake that was sent to deliberately trick Eve into eating the fruit. And why Eve and not Adam? Because if you read the Bible carefully, you'll see that Eve hadn't been created yet when God warned Adam not to eat the fruit. In other words, Eve was COMPLETELY innocent and had no knowledge ... at all ... that she wasn't supposed to eat the fruit.

But worst of all is Yahweh's omniscience. In other words, Yahweh knew full well that Adam and Eve would disobey them. Which is the whole reason why Yahweh put humans in the garden together with the fruit in the first place. God could have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the core of a neutron star 50 quadrillion light years away. He could've put the tree on the very edge of the universe. In fact, why have a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil ... at all?

Because it was all a big set up. God WANTED Adam and Eve to disobey. And when they did, God unleashed his fake anger onto the world for a so-called "crime" Yahweh KNEW would happen. And he did nothing to prevent it. In fact, Yahweh made sure it happened.

It was NOT mankind's disobedience that created the world of today. God created that, too. Because God COULD have forgiven Adam and Eve then and there. Sure, maybe give them a much, MUCH smaller, temporary punishment and forgive them. Instead of this immoral and disgusting "hey, let's punish every human being that will ever live from now until the end of time" d**k move by Yahweh.

Instead, humanity had to wait THOUSANDS of years for God to come back as Jesus and pull all of that completely unnecessary blood sacrifice theatrics with the crucifiction to forgive everyone for things they didn't even do ... and then nothing changed, anyway. There's still death, misery, evil, and sin. We still have to farm for our food. It still hurts to give birth. Even the snakes never got their feet back.

Which, of course, tells me that none of this crazy nonsense ever took place -- for which I am eternally thankful.

But for those who would rather blame the innocent children for the state of the world -- instead of the irresponsible father who left the forbidden fruit there on purpose KNOWING what would happen -- well, what can I say? The problem with religious belief is that it demands you leave your brain at the door when you enter the church. No critical thinking, no logic, no rationality is allowed beyond the front door.

Because we ALL know that if one child shot a bunch of other children with a loaded gun carelessly left in an unsupervised room by a father, every court in the Western World would rule that the father was at fault. The judge and jury isn't going to say, "Oh, well, Daddy warned them not to play with the gun and they played with it anyway, so it's the children's fault!" That is, in a word, just plain stoopid. And I know you're smart enough to realize that. Which is why I say that religion brooks no rational thought. One must accept the idiotic as the truth.

Adam and Eve weren't children in the sense of ignorance. They just believed a lie. So why would God have this tree in their midst? There was nothing wrong with the tree itself. It had everything to do with the command not to take the fruit from it. This is called responsibility. Duty! Compared to all the rules we have in the world today, give me just one rule not to break and I would have paradise. That's more than Heaven.


Concerning the talking snake, this was a rebel in the ranks. When God created, there was no evil influences. We don't know when the divine rebellion took place, but obviously this rebel was allowed to influence Adam and Eve. Maybe that is how the rebellion begun, who knows. Why would God allow all this then? Don't know. Perhaps to see if Adam and Eve would rebel?


I don't want to bog down the topic with these specific discussions of Yahweh. The ultimate thing I wanted with this thread was what give us the right to judge God or a god, as though they have erred. I believe I presented why we don't have a standing to make such a judgment. Many have disagreed and we discussed all kinds of creator gods. Many don't find my reason satisfactory, that's okay. I also haven't seen a good reason why we are justified, other than some of the points Harry brought up in particular.


And again, nobody really delves into my insect, alien analogies with great detail. That said, I do want to discuss how Yahweh may not have known what Adam and Eve would do before creation. (After creation it gets tricky) If it is true we have free will choice, before our existence, our choices are nothing. For how can OUR choices precede OUR existence? If God decided not to create us, do our choices still exist? I say no, because we don't exist. After our creation, we are something for God to know, and thus our choices are something to know. Scripture says God declares the end from the beginning. Yet if there is no beginning, how can there be an end. So that is my reasoning for why God didn't know what Adam and Eve would do before creation. There was no "would". It didn't exist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
You need to understand Christianity as history -- rather than as an authoritarian religion that MUST be believed no matter how illogical.

My big response here is ... so? If you understood the history of Christianity and how the Catholic Church ruled the Western world for almost 1,000 years, you'd understand it. There's a very good chance that somewhere in your past, you have an ancestor that was told to convert to Christianity or die on the spot. Meaning that Christianity was quite literally forced on much of the European population under the pain of death if one did not convert. Is it any wonder, then, why the Bible -- rather than, say, the Torah, the Qu'ran, the Hindu Vedas, or some other holy book doesn't have an impact?

Which brings me to an even more important point: Only one-third of the global population believes in the Bible. Some two-thirds of the population believe in a different book. Or no book at all. I can guarantee you that there are a billion Hindus who would say that the Vedic texts have just as much of an impact on THEIR culture as the Bible does on yours. And the Vedas are thousands of years older than either Christianity or judaeism. Maybe Hinduism is the right religion then, hmm?


I'll try to respond to the rest of your post concerning my reasons for my belief in Yahweh here. Again, I don't want to bog down the thread discussing these things. I'm sure many will write me a thousand responses just to this alone (along with the other things I mentioned).


You brought up the fact how Christianity was forced down people's throats for the majority of it's history. I might give you that, but do you understand what Christianity was in the beginning? Judaism itself was a backwoods religion in the middle of many other cultures and nations. Even though in Judaism there was an element of proselytizing, ultimately it was isolated to Israel, in the sense it's practitioners weren't overwhelmingly concerned with showing God to the nations. The people weren't out there back in the day telling the world about Yahweh. So it didn't spread like that outside of Israel.


Christianity was backwoods of backwoods. There were all kinds of Messiah figures within Judaism. Particularly during the Roman subjugation. Out of all of them, Christianity would have been the most unappealing because it demanded suffering for the sake of it's spread. Christianity should have never left Jerusalem due to the perscecution, and yet it spread. If this was just a bunch of people teaching a doctrine, and that was all it was, no way it would have survived the persecution stage. Yet it spread throughout the Roman Empire for hundreds of years, to the point that Rome itself accepted it as it's official religion.


Of course that may not have been a good thing in and of itself, but the message was spreading really well before it was forced down people's throats. I would argue it wouldn't have been so unless there was something spectacular happening accompanying the message. If you look at some of the other major religions of the world, they were all started by influential people or governments. Buddhism was started by a prince. Hinduism was started by a group of people of various influence. Islam was started by someone who was a military commander. So these major beliefs were started by folk of influence. Jesus was a nobody, a common stone craftsman.


You're response to this may be "so", or as you pointed out you say I'm ignorant of other beliefs and cultures, and how groups aren't that different from what Israel has accomplish. (In terms of returning to the land) Perhaps then nothing short of God physically coming down and saying He's been working through Israel would convince you.


I'll leave the rest there for now. I apologize if this is viewed as a cop-out, but again I don't want to bog the thread down with this discussion. I know I'm going to get many responses to what I've written so far already, from both non-believer and believer alike. Perhaps too many for me to respond to.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,001 posts, read 13,480,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Jeez. I wonder how many hours Post #273 took to compose. And no one's going to take time to read it. Oh well.
You're making a lot of assumptions. Some people can just have the words flow out of their fingers and pretty much compose a first draft as fast as they can type, and then revise very rapidly. I suspect Shirina is one of those. She's too productive with words to be anything else.

But let us say for the sake of argument that it took her longer than the 20 minutes or so I would have guessed ... on the order of hours. Is there something gross, immoral or fattening about that? I think it's admirable, personally. It's better than the average attention span of a gnat on the Internet generally, that's for sure.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,001 posts, read 13,480,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
... it's not necessarily a might makes right argument. Its "creator's authority". If I build something, I have the right to do whatever I see fit concerning it. The only thing that could possibly override that, would be a law outside and over the creator. For instance if I build a robot that genuinely becomes self aware, have feelings, etc., the law of the government may come in and give the robot its own rights. Is there such a governing body outside of the creator?
I think where we keep disconnecting is that a thing is good or bad / right or wrong based on whether it helps or harms people. If I created an AI, it would not be any more right for me to torment it than it would be to torment any sufficiently sentient being. Creator / created relationships are not relevant to what is good or harmful.

There are people, it is said, who are so good that "they would not hurt a fly". I rather think the fly analogy doesn't hold up though. For one thing, we aren't the creator of the fly so whatever right we have to swat them isn't based on "ownership" or "authority", which is the argument you are making about god. In addition, a creator would create each living thing with its own nature which it must obey. The lion's nature is to hunt and kill and eat prey. The rabbit's nature is basically to BE prey. Human nature is to swat flies and to hunt and gather and harvest and so forth. All of these things are based on the nature each creature has, or you would probably say, their god-given nature. So humans are not censured by god for acting like humans, except in the special case of sex apparently.

You would probably have a more honest argument if you said that god has a nature which he simply fulfills as such. That nature is to not have any limitations whatsoever and by your lights apparently not to have any sort of empathy, compassion, or a moral compass, either. His lack of limitations, by your thinking, isn't something that enables him to do whatever it takes to make us safe and okay, it just enables him to have his own way 100% of the time. And here, you are not alone in that I've debated more that one Christian who basically gives god a free pass concerning God's own moral code ... he isn't subject to any standards of behavior, not even the ones he supposedly holds for us. Nor is he responsible to be an example to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
We have free will. God can do anything He wants, but in a world where we can choose to love Him back, there is always a chance of some choosing to hate Him. So as we know, Yahweh will do something about the current world, but He's waiting for the full number of those who are returning to Him.
This is a false dichotomy. I don't hate god. I will also remind you that I conduct myself in a manner consistent with what you believe god's morality to be ... I do not lie, steal, cheat, fornicate, etc., and I'm hardly unique in that regard. So it isn't some stark choice that one either loves or hates god ... to get to that choice one must first believe. And in my view to believe one must have valid evidence to support the belief. Belief is not a choice, but a result of the preponderance of evidence (if any).

Finally I suppose I must remind you that one cannot hate someone that does not even exist, or resist a moral code that one has no particular problem with, and that one hews to better than many Christians do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Now, did God know the world would turn out like this, in terms of the choices people would make? I debate He knew. In Genesis 6, we see God is sorrowful in making man on the earth. In other words, perhaps He didn't know. That is an interesting debate. Remember also how God tested Abraham? In Genesis 22:12 it states...........


“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me.”.....


So I would argue perhaps God didn't know the choices of mankind before creation.
Yes these are just a few of the references in scripture that suggest that god is not omnipotent. And if he is not all powerful then he may simply be unable to help us despite wanting to. He is reduced to being very, very sad about all the suffering in the world, but unable to act concerning it. This is one way that god can mostly escape moral responsibility for his actions in the light of his own moral code, yet without being uncaring / unloving. It preserves omnibenevolence and omniscience, but not omnipotence.

BUT, since you are arguing that god has the right to do whatever he wants because he is ever so much more powerful and authoritative than us ... I'm not sure you really want to throw his omnipotence under the bus. Those two objectives are at odds with one another.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 07:54 PM
 
63,810 posts, read 40,087,129 times
Reputation: 7871
Heavenese, Your premise sufers from two major flaws. The first is that your amoral assumption that a Creator has complete license to do whatever he wants to his "thinking and feeling" creations is bogus and is actually completely immoral. You have just assumed it a priori and not supplied any justifiable rationale for it. Second, nowhere do we have "What God said." All we have is what men have said God said. That is the unfixable flaw because we can never know what God said or wants whether or not He is a willful Creator. Your humble obedience is to what other men have said. You cannot know that it is what your purported Creator said or wants. My encounter negates our ancestors' primitive and barbaric interpretations of whatever inspirations they received, as well as their complete misinterpretation of Jesus and His revelations of God's True Nature, IMO.
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