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Old 12-29-2023, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,007 posts, read 13,491,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
If there is no God, as you say, Deism is not a reasonable idea.
We could parse this until the cows come home, but it's still the wrong question. "Reasonable" is not binary. It's a spectrum. Some things are more or less reasonable than others. "Reasonableness" is a subjective personal determination, and that a lot of people consider a thing reasonable is a data point I guess but speaks more to the popularity or appeal of an idea than to its accuracy.

It's not the "win" you think it is even if we concede your simplistic assertion that theism is "reasonable".

It still comes back to, can you point to evidence or logical argument that makes your views more, rather than less, likely to be true? And you've already tacitly admitted that you cannot, in a couple of ways: first, you have repeatedly declined to even claim to have evidence (and I credit you for that, as most theists will reference things they seem to think is evidence that is not; at least you don't do that). And secondly, you are trying very hard to show that theism is "reasonable" or not delusional even if not supportable.

People regularly delude themselves to varying degrees to justify either unsupportable or sometimes even overtly harmful ideas. And I don't just mean regarding religion or theism, either. None of us are 100% honest with ourselves. I don't claim to be. But I do feel I have found a way of understanding and being in the world that allows me to be more authentic -- honest with myself and therefore with others. There's no way for me to make such decisions without believing that this way of thinking and being is less deluded, more honest, and more functional, at least for me. From this it does not follow that I think other people are crazy fools across the board. For that to be true I would have to lack epistemological humility and I would have to give myself over to stereotype. People are complicated and perfectly capable of holding contradictory views or behaving in ways that contradict their beliefs (in good as well as bad ways).

Remember, I used to be an evangelical. I understand the subculture and the mindset. I understand its sincerity and what it is trying to accomplish for people. I discarded it because it very much did not work for me and I feel I have found more accurate mental models for how the world actually works and how I should relate to that. I still have evangelical relatives and acquaintances though, and at least where our lives intersect, both they and I are reasonable people, for some given value of "reasonable". Which says exactly nothing about whether how likely we are to be right in our beliefs.

 
Old 12-29-2023, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,831 posts, read 24,347,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
If there is no God, as you say, Deism is not a reasonable idea.
Are you the reincarnation of my grandmother?

How much longer are you going to nag him about this?

He doesn't believe what you believe. And, as a proselytizing christian, you don't realize that you do more harm than good to your cause.
 
Old 12-29-2023, 10:46 AM
 
29,551 posts, read 9,729,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Perhaps after reading the title for this thread, one could become enflamed. Yet chill for a second and engage this topic honestly. When we think about it, who are we to accuse God of something? If you disagree with God on something, its not like you can override Him. In this, when it comes to God, all of us are in the same boat. I'm not better than you, and you are not better than me. I'm not smarter than you, you are not smarter than me. When it comes to God, our accolades mean nothing. Our very lives mean nothing. The only reasonable thing to do concerning Him, is bow and prostrate ourselves in His presence.

Now, of course I say all of this if He is real (and yall know I believe on Yahweh) If you would indulge me for a second, pretend God or a god is real, that is to say the creator of the universe. How can we legitimately accuse Him of something like being evil or doing wrong? For instance in the Bible, God floods the world due to His judgment of the people in Noah's day. Was God wrong for doing that? If you think He was, who are you to criticize God? (Hence the title of the thread )

Now for everyone, I'm laughing, I'm having a little bit of fun asking this. Yet let's look at this in another way. All of us have dealt with insects in our homes right? If we saw a spider and squashed it, nobody would call you a murderer. I'm not saying God sees us as bothersome insects, but we certainly didn't create the insects. What right do we have to take their lives? Yet nobody cares (for the most part) if we swat flies, clapped mosquitoes out of existence, or blast a can of raid on a cockroach. If we have the right to do those things to creatures we had no part in making, how much more the creator and owner of the universe have the right to do what He wills with His own creation? From a philosophical standpoint, I believe we can agree to this summation. If not, discuss why not.
Is this yet another attempt to suggest mature, honest and intelligent people should not question what goes on around us? Question others about what they think is the truth of these matters? Question why certain things happen to some people but don't happen to others? Question the nature of things? How everything began?
Why the avocado has such a large pit?

I am in no way enflamed. Totally chilled here and more than glad to honestly engage in any topic, but we can't or should not question what people claim about God? I'm an atheist of course, so there's that, but back when I was a believer, I would have never suggested we can't question Him. As a believer, I would think we must assume that God gave us brains and the ability to think critically. This involves if not requires asking questions. No questions should be "taboo." Thinking that way is how religions manage to keep millions of followers "in line."

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

I'm with Dorothy on this one!
 
Old 12-29-2023, 04:03 PM
 
2,422 posts, read 1,450,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Is this yet another attempt to suggest mature, honest and intelligent people should not question what goes on around us? Question others about what they think is the truth of these matters? Question why certain things happen to some people but don't happen to others? Question the nature of things? How everything began?
Why the avocado has such a large pit?

I am in no way enflamed. Totally chilled here and more than glad to honestly engage in any topic, but we can't or should not question what people claim about God? I'm an atheist of course, so there's that, but back when I was a believer, I would have never suggested we can't question Him. As a believer, I would think we must assume that God gave us brains and the ability to think critically. This involves if not requires asking questions. No questions should be "taboo." Thinking that way is how religions manage to keep millions of followers "in line."

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

I'm with Dorothy on this one!

It might come down to "Do we have the proper means to critique the creator"? Could we legally do it? (Is there a law we can invoke that is higher than the creator) Do we have the expertise of reality to do it? (Do we know enough on the proper way to create things) We've discussed these things so far, and the question of does might make right also popped up. What if might does make right in terms of creator and creation? Now such thoughts can't be applied to us in relation to each other. Yet if a creator god does exist, it might very well be in play.
 
Old 12-30-2023, 08:59 AM
 
29,551 posts, read 9,729,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
It might come down to "Do we have the proper means to critique the creator"? Could we legally do it? (Is there a law we can invoke that is higher than the creator) Do we have the expertise of reality to do it? (Do we know enough on the proper way to create things) We've discussed these things so far, and the question of does might make right also popped up. What if might does make right in terms of creator and creation? Now such thoughts can't be applied to us in relation to each other. Yet if a creator god does exist, it might very well be in play.
I don't know about you or anybody else, but all I need is my own judgement about such things...

This is all any of us needs in order to judge right from wrong, better over worse, true or false, and this is all any of us use to decide how to judge what we do. About so very many things of consequence to us. We don't need "proper means," "expertise" or laws to chose our mate for example. Who to believe or vote for. All we need is an ability to think critically. Some will decide to use whatever source of information to help them judge. Some may turn to a holy book for example, but either way we judge according to our best abilities. For whatever your reasons, you are doing the same thing. You have made a judgement that to question or "Criticize God" is somehow not possible or appropriate. I strongly disagree.
 
Old 12-30-2023, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,007 posts, read 13,491,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I don't know about you or anybody else, but all I need is my own judgement about such things...
This is a taboo thought for many believers because of the circular reasoning regularly deployed in the Bible disparaging "mere" human reasoning and exalting religious faith as a virtue. Their conditioned response would be that you are experiencing pride before a fall and that god knows better (implying that what god allegedly knows can be known and understood with certainty).

What they don't realize is that they are (mis)using their own judgment too, it is just basing their judgment on the failed epistemology of religious faith. In the end, each of us decides what is right/wrong or what to do/not do, using whatever criteria they decide to use -- good, bad or indifferent. But monotheists in particular are accustomed to hiding behind god's skirts so that they don't have to directly "own" their own decisions. But alas, they are still deciding, whether they like it or not. Just as we are. The question is who has a better basis for making such decisions.
 
Old 12-30-2023, 07:28 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
551 posts, read 1,188,667 times
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Suffering.. Buddhism addresses it that it is a way of life. Most religions say suffering is due to x or not x belief and or karma/deeds/outcome/destiny/plan.

Religions exist because of suffering. Human suffering.
 
Old 12-30-2023, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Townsville
6,797 posts, read 2,911,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnchantedMuggle View Post
Non-questioning people are extremely easy to control and will fall for anything. They will believe the first thing that is put to them because someone higher up said so.
Yes, most definitely. I would go so far as to say that the majority of professed Christians would be those of the latter group. Moreover, once they have absorbed in their often-fertile minds what the man behind the pulpit has indoctrinated them with, their minds are then closed off to anything that may appear to contradict those beliefs. We're all capable of being indoctrinated but, for the sake of applying a critical approach to our beliefs, we may need to get a grip on ourselves and open up to the possibility that what we've been led to believe just may not be the truth. However, I don't know of anyone who enjoys being corrected, especially when it comes to their having to let go of a long-held cherished belief. We may even temporarily resent those that opened our eyes to 'the truth'.
 
Old 12-31-2023, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,007 posts, read 13,491,416 times
Reputation: 9944
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonorityGenius View Post
Suffering.. Buddhism addresses it that it is a way of life. Most religions say suffering is due to x or not x belief and or karma/deeds/outcome/destiny/plan.

Religions exist because of suffering. Human suffering.
You're not wrong, but I tend to think of it more in terms of the human need to make sense of life ... which is largely caused by suffering violating their hopes / dreams / aspirations / assumptions, sure, but not everything is high-stakes, and some things are just surprising or baffling or result in less than optimal decision making, and so I think a more inclusive analysis is that ideologies (including religions) exist to make sense of life (including human suffering).
 
Old 12-31-2023, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,007 posts, read 13,491,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
However, I don't know of anyone who enjoys being corrected, especially when it comes to their having to let go of a long-held cherished belief. We may even temporarily resent those that opened our eyes to 'the truth'.
Few enjoy even being challenged, much less corrected. It is possible not only to hold incorrect beliefs, but to hold correct beliefs for wrong reasons or justifications. A good teacher, mentor or friend will always challenge you to think clearly, even concerning things you're not wrong about.

For example, it is better to refrain from murder because it's a great harm to the victim and the victim's circle of loved ones, and to the perpetrator, plus a violation of a personal goal to be peaceful, loving and empathetic, than to refrain because you fear you might get caught or punished, be it by civil authority or by god. I mean if the latter is the ONLY reason you don't murder, rape and pillage, it's better than none at all, but it is better to have unselfish motivations not to be a murderer, grounded in an understanding of actual harms in the real world rather than asserted harms in some asserted realm of spirit. Morality works better when it's handled directly rather than indirectly. "Because I said so" is god's lazy way out.

You are right, though, that most people are way over-invested in being right(eous). Lots of ego attached, lots of concern for appearance rather than substance. And because they are so identified with their beliefs, anything that shakes those beliefs is mistaken for an existential threat.
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