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Old 11-27-2023, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
You’re not wrong as far as the religiously observant go, which is also the case with Christianity (Evangelicals rapidly growing and Mainline Protestants and other liberal-to-moderate sects steadily shrinking).

But the rates of people who identify as “just Jewish” without gravitating toward any particular denomination (they tend to be very relaxed and loosely observant, unlike self-identified non-denominational Christians) and people who identify as Jewish by ethnocultural background only are skyrocketing. Consequently, the Reform and especially Conservative movements have really been hurting.
I learned something today -- thanks!

 
Old 11-27-2023, 07:19 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,309 posts, read 12,898,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I learned something today -- thanks!
Happy to oblige! Here’s a link to a recent Pew survey for more information.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 02:04 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,863 posts, read 8,139,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I regard atheism AS an evolution and as the only direction in which we can evolve our thought processes that will free us from the madness of sectarian violence and hatred.
Sectarian violence and hatred are not a product of religion per se. They are a product of reality. I'm a VERY strong believer in evolution. When I discuss religion I am discussing it in relation to evolution. Religion is evolutionarily favored. The question is, why?

Atheists often assume it has something to do with a fear of death, or a desire for meaning, after humans became more cognitively-developed via evolution. I don't agree with that analysis. My view is that the only thing that matters in this world is power. Thus, religion is either powerful, or it isn't. Religion can either conquer the world, or it can't.

In fact, I consider religion to be nothing more than a form of ideology. Like liberalism or communism. Both of which can only exist insofar as they are powerful, and both of which want to expand across the planet. Moreover, I don't believe either religious or political leaders ever believe in what they preach. Rather, they use ideology as a means to seize power and as a justification for power.

In short, what exists is what is strong. What works.


The key to power is the large-scale cooperation of peoples in a "society"(IE government). This cooperation is necessary not only for large armies but also for the control, extraction, and utilization of natural resources in industry, and the sharing of knowledge for the development of science and technology, both for hard power through the production of military weapons, and soft power through economics.

The role of religion historically was three-fold... Firstly, to create unity and a shared identity between large numbers of people(a form of pan-tribalism), to increase birthrates, and to give the masses something worth enduring hardship for, sacrificing for, or even dying for.

This is why the various kingdoms of Europe often converted to Christianity. Not because their kings read the bible and believed it was true, but because Christianity essentially created an alliance structure which preserved their kingdoms both from Christian aggression and against their neighbors. You can think of "Christian Europe" as a kind of NATO or European Union(democracy). With Rome as the center instead of Brussels.


The reason Christianity is on the decline isn't actually because we are more educated now. It is because Christianity is no longer a useful tool for conquest/expansion. Islam is an iron wall against Christianity, and Islam is fundamentally superior to Christianity in that it has all the benefits of Christianity while also being closer to human-nature/evolution. Thus Islam should always defeat Christianity over the long-run.

Which begs the question, why did Christianity become powerful? Or more specifically, why did Europe conquer the world? Luck mostly. They "discovered" America and colonized an entire hemisphere with its vast resources. And the only reason that was possible was because of the geographic location of Western Europe on the Atlantic Ocean. Starting with Portugal who was strategically positioned to colonize the non-Islamic parts of West and South Africa, and Spain who used the trade winds off the Canary Islands to reach the Americas. Western Europe then invested heavily in their naval power(since they were largely protected by Eastern European land Armies), and essentially monopolized all global trade(and through that the world's reserve currency/finance).

The Western Hemisphere could be conquered outright by Christians because the natives were incapable of defending themselves and they had no one to ally with(plus disease). In Africa, the Christians could only colonize the parts where Islam wasn't. In Asia, the Christians were only able to truly colonize the islands where they could completely dominate. On the mainland they primarily used divide-and-conquer tactics.

Since the political elite can no longer use Christianity as a means of expanding their power/control, they have been creating new ideological systems that can permeate and subvert what exists. Thus atheism, liberalism, communism, etc, can theoretically expand everywhere. Overthrowing everything that existed before.

You are correct insofar as religion creates an irreconcilable division/tribalism/competition which can often end in war/violence. And that abolishing religion removes that division. But ideology creates the same division/tribalism/competition which can likewise lead to war/violence. In fact, the greatest war in history was fundamentally an ideological war(for global hegemony). Thus if your goal is to end division and violence, it could only be accomplished if there were but one ideology across the entire face of the Earth. For that matter, WWIII seems to be shaping up as an ideological struggle between "democracy" and "authoritarianism". Which is actually just a mask for American vs Chinese/Russian hegemony.

If your argument is that world peace requires the entire world to adopt the same ideology, then you are effectively making the same argument as Islam. Which believes world peace can only be achieved with every human converting/submitting to Islam.

To an atheist, the idea of submitting to Islam is tantamount to accepting slavery. A slavery based on ideas and principles which you reject as being untrue, unjust, if not evil.

I agree, but what's the difference between submitting to Islam and submitting to your government? Society cannot exist without submission to authority, and society will invariably pass laws that you not only oppose, but think evil.

Thus there are really two types of atheists. Those who think atheism is useful for creating the society they want, and those who despise all authority and just want to be free.

The former deludes themselves into believing they would have power over said government. That it wouldn't be ruled by a handful of elites who would use propaganda/indoctrination to enslave the masses under a global government, with no one left to oppose them(see George Orwell, Ignorance is Strength).

The latter deludes themselves into believing that they could ever be free. True freedom would be anarchy, and anarchy cannot survive in a Darwinian world.

Furthermore, atheism seems to be incapable of sustaining itself, especially without an outside enemy. Thus atheism can only be a transition from one form of oppression to another. Otherwise it is but an evolutionary dead-end.

If I accept the fact that civilizations will always be governed by the elite, and that the elite use ideology for power, then the question is what is the most benign form of religion/ideology which is still capable of sustaining and defending itself?

I was reflecting on the three Abrahamic religions recently and I was thinking about which of the "three" I would want to "win"(if there were no other alternative). That was the inspiration for this post.

Note to moderator: All of my posts other than this one are in the politics forum. I wasn't sure where to post this thread but I felt like it was more religious than political. Which is why I posted it here.

Last edited by Redshadowz; 11-28-2023 at 02:21 AM..
 
Old 11-28-2023, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,863 posts, read 8,139,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Why would they go to war with us, the way we mindlessly fawn all over them and enable and encourage and subsidize them? And there's the practical matter that Judaism (whether religious or just cultural) comprises but 1.5% of the world population. They HAVE to coexist to an extent.
As I said, Judaism is the original nation-state. But it is hard for an exclusionary nation-state to conquer the world since it is them against everyone else. Their hostility eventually angers all of their neighbors.

Empires can conquer the world because they are not exclusionary. Judaism also has historically had an ancestral basis(the "seed of Abraham"). Whereas Christianity/Islam was spread through conversion across nations, empires, kingdoms, etc. Similar to ideological systems such as liberalism/democracy/communism/etc.

Judaism only survived through Christianity. Without Christianity, Jews would be dirt-farmers under Islam, or they would have ceased to exist a long time ago. As Nietzsche says, Christians are cattle, wherein a European secular(Machiavellian) elite along with a Jewish elite of merchants/bankers/intellectuals essentially ruled over Christian Europe for 1,500 years. In my view, without that Jewish elite, Christian Europe would have never developed the global trade networks and financial systems necessary for Europe's rise to dominance.

I would even say that without Judaism, Christianity would have been conquered by Islam a long time ago. Judaism is a practical/materialistic religion of money, power, manipulation, and exploitation. Christianity is at its core a rebellion against nature. A disgust for power, hierarchy, inequality, and authority.

In fact, it took a Jew(Paul) to save Christianity from destruction by accepting Roman rule(Romans 13).

Thus on one hand you might say Jews are a parasite on Christianity, but on the other hand, you could say that Judaism and Christianity create a synergy wherein the quasi-Jewish ruling class organizes and leads the Christian herds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Islam by contrast is poised to take over as the majority religion from Christianity, in terms of numbers. Some of those folks want a global caliphate at the point of a sword, and I think that is a little more credible threat than whatever secret ambitions of global hegemony that Judaism might theoretically harbor.
I somewhat agree. My beef is that our Jewish elite despises non-Jews. They see Christians/Europeans as a threat and they are trying to undermine and destroy them. But in their efforts to undermine Europe and Christianity, they are strengthening Islam. And Islam is far more threatening to Judaism than Christianity. Which has become more apparent after recent events. So much so that our elites seem to be putting off their hatred for Europeans and Christians to protect themselves from Islam.

I hate our government so much that for a time I was almost welcoming to the thought of Islam taking over. The problem is, I think Islam might be worse. And even if it isn't worse, there must be a better alternative.

I hate all these people. Especially "prosperity gospel" evangelical degenerates.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 08:06 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
7,569 posts, read 6,017,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Thread was reported. It teeters on the edge of political and/or current events spectrum. Let it not go there, or it will have to be closed. Leaving the discussion open for now. Thanks.


I think a big part of the issue though is the failure of the separation of church and state. I would suggest that neither Israel nor Palestine has much of a hard line between one or the other, at least compared to Western nations SO it is easy to breach the line between the two in this cse


THAT BEING SAID I have little appreiation for any of the Abrahamic religions OR their monstrosity of a god. Their myths are full of stories of a horrible, violent, vengeful god, and this evil character serves as the leader and inspiration for all of them.

Some would argue that the character of Jesus does promote love and peace. Some Islamists I have met insist that Islam is a religion of peace as well. But followers of both are many times NOT loving or peaceful people.
And the god of the Bible has been rightly called the most evil character in literature....

But I see nothing in either three that would inspire this cat to be involved with them.
Good morals, altruism, peace and love DO in fact exist outside of these groups, and often fail to exist within them. SO yeah from this perspective, I am much better off without them. I think I lost respect for Christianity at a young age, growing up in a small town Baptist church around hate-mongers, seeing that the people in that church were so miserable, and that above all else, I just did not want to be like them.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 08:59 AM
 
15,795 posts, read 6,858,902 times
Reputation: 8453
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
You realize you’re praising textbook Islamophobia and anti-Semitism, right? Or are you willing to look past that because you think it provides the perfect springboard to proclaim Hindu supremacy?
My point merely was this
Quote:
. However religions and human behavior are two separate and independent things. Religion may have improper influence on people, for both good and wicked actions. I believe Geography has to a greater extent influence on these 3 religions.
If you think the OP is what you describe then you should respond to that post rather than raise and attack a silly and easy strawman. You should check your own prejudices and assumptions, always wrong and biased, before posting.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,125 posts, read 23,792,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
...

You should check your own prejudices and assumptions, always wrong and biased, before posting.
Ahem
 
Old 11-28-2023, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Virginia
10,043 posts, read 6,307,300 times
Reputation: 27493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
As I said, Judaism is the original nation-state. But it is hard for an exclusionary nation-state to conquer the world since it is them against everyone else. Their hostility eventually angers all of their neighbors.

Empires can conquer the world because they are not exclusionary. Judaism also has historically had an ancestral basis(the "seed of Abraham"). Whereas Christianity/Islam was spread through conversion across nations, empires, kingdoms, etc. Similar to ideological systems such as liberalism/democracy/communism/etc.

Judaism only survived through Christianity. Without Christianity, Jews would be dirt-farmers under Islam, or they would have ceased to exist a long time ago. As Nietzsche says, Christians are cattle, wherein a European secular(Machiavellian) elite along with a Jewish elite of merchants/bankers/intellectuals essentially ruled over Christian Europe for 1,500 years. In my view, without that Jewish elite, Christian Europe would have never developed the global trade networks and financial systems necessary for Europe's rise to dominance.

I would even say that without Judaism, Christianity would have been conquered by Islam a long time ago. Judaism is a practical/materialistic religion of money, power, manipulation, and exploitation. Christianity is at its core a rebellion against nature. A disgust for power, hierarchy, inequality, and authority.

In fact, it took a Jew(Paul) to save Christianity from destruction by accepting Roman rule(Romans 13).

Thus on one hand you might say Jews are a parasite on Christianity, but on the other hand, you could say that Judaism and Christianity create a synergy wherein the quasi-Jewish ruling class organizes and leads the Christian herds.



I somewhat agree. My beef is that our Jewish elite despises non-Jews. They see Christians/Europeans as a threat and they are trying to undermine and destroy them. But in their efforts to undermine Europe and Christianity, they are strengthening Islam. And Islam is far more threatening to Judaism than Christianity. Which has become more apparent after recent events. So much so that our elites seem to be putting off their hatred for Europeans and Christians to protect themselves from Islam.

I hate our government so much that for a time I was almost welcoming to the thought of Islam taking over. The problem is, I think Islam might be worse. And even if it isn't worse, there must be a better alternative.

I hate all these people. Especially "prosperity gospel" evangelical degenerates.
I see that you're spreading the same antisemitic views that you regularly post on the P&OC forum, such as "Judaism is a practical/materialistic religion of money, power, hierarchy, inequality, and authority'. You completely ignore the historic context wherein Jews in the diaspora were not allowed to own land nor join the trade guilds, thus were were forced to practice moneylending, which was forbidden by whatever Church was in charge at the time. They would not only lend money to individuals, but to the royals and governments. Of course, when the people in power decided they didn't want to repay their debts to the Jews, they would simply expel them from the country. How is that a "religion of power"?

In contrast, Judaism is a religion of learning and striving to improve the world through the results of that learning. That's why the Jews have provided the world with so many medical, scientific, and social advances. If Jews despise non-Jews (especially Christians) so much, why have they given so much to society at large? According to your theory of how Jews believe, we should have kept all of our knowledge and talent to ourselves instead of bringing it to the world, often at our own peril (for example, our strong support of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s). IMO, your view of Jews and Judaism is extremely skewed.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 10:03 AM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,309 posts, read 12,898,873 times
Reputation: 6161
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
My point merely was this

If you think the OP is what you describe then you should respond to that post rather than raise and attack a silly and easy strawman. You should check your own prejudices and assumptions, always wrong and biased, before posting.
Oh, please. You called it a “brave post.” There’s nothing brave about bigotry. I don’t necessarily think you feel otherwise. That’s why I surmised that you gave your kudos without really reading the post beyond, perhaps, the small excerpt you used as a platform to express your religiocentrism.

But if I’m mistaken and you really do believe hateful canards about Jews and Muslims that could have been copied and pasted from such esteemed sources as Stormfront and VDARE, then by all means please correct me. Just know that those folks aren’t in love with Hindus and Asian Indians either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Ahem
Moderator cut: Personal remark deleted

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 12-01-2023 at 02:17 PM.. Reason: Keep it about the topic, not about the poster.
 
Old 11-28-2023, 11:49 AM
 
15,795 posts, read 6,858,902 times
Reputation: 8453
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
Oh, please. You called it a “brave post.” There’s nothing brave about bigotry. I don’t necessarily think you feel otherwise. That’s why I surmised that you gave your kudos without really reading the post beyond, perhaps, the small excerpt you used as a platform to express your religiocentrism.

But if I’m mistaken and you really do believe hateful canards about Jews and Muslims that could have been copied and pasted from such esteemed sources as Stormfront and VDARE, then by all means please correct me. Just know that those folks aren’t in love with Hindus and Asian Indians either.
I call the post brave because the OP DOES not seem to be silenced by being labeled anti-semite, a label which truly has lost its sting or meaning by being used as a weapon to merely silence criticism of any kind. True hatred exists when people are attacked, killed, oppressed and discriminated, and I don deny that it is happening, not only to jews but for all minorities, not only here but all over the world. It is also brave because i expected it to be shut down.
While this forum attacks all religions, including Hinduism, I have rarely seen Judaism attacked with the kind of vehemence atheists bestow on all other religions. In fact none at all and i find that curious why Judaism has escaped the wrath and there was a small discussion about before it got closed. That is another reason I find the post brave.
I find the discussion interesting because i have always wondered about the effect of harsh climates on the level of violence and aggression that people exhibit. There can bo no quarrel that the Abrahamic religions have exhibited heart stopping violence and hate historically. It is not to praise Hindus or Indians but the fact is India was ruled by Arabs who established the Moghul empire for, i dont know, 100s of years. Followed be the British empire for 200 years. Hindu religion and culture did not die like say the Greeks’ did when Christianity was imposed. Hinduism is still the major religion in all of South Asia, like some 70%. This is not any religiocentrism but a matter of curiosity. It is not as if Hindus have not gone on killing sprees, it has happened.
As for making assumption about posters about whom i only know by how they express themselve and what they reveal i have no interest in imagining their lives. Moderator cut: Personal remarks removed

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 12-01-2023 at 02:19 PM.. Reason: Keep it about the topic, not about the poster.
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