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Old 12-05-2023, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
975 posts, read 533,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
I would challenge former Christians in that most didn't truly deep dive into understanding what is in the Scriptures. I say this because most Christians today don't. If we look in the OT, I would say it is absolutely clear there is a plurality sense to God's Oneness. Take a look at Gideon, who thought he would die because he saw the Angel of the Lord face to face. God told Moses no one would see His face and live. So if Gideon thought he would die, he must be equating God's Angel with God. Then in Daniel, we see one like "the Son of Man", riding the clouds of heaven. There is a rabbinical teaching going back to 200 BC, talking about "The Two Powers in Heaven". This steaming from Daniel's vision. We also read OT Scripture where God speaks of "His Spirit", and He also speaks of "His Angel". So the concept of the Trinity (or something similar like the Two Powers) isn't something developed by Christianity. Its there already in the OT.
My experience is that the atheists who were raised in the christian religion do a much deeper dive into the scriptures than any who actually believe in the abrahamic religions. The difference is education in history, recognizing cognitive dissonance, and critical thinking.

 
Old 12-05-2023, 10:40 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,321,444 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
We often hear that Christianity is the biggest source of Atheism in the western world.

There are also some very strong indications that Trinity is a made up concept that was rolled out long after Jesus left the scene. This was not the part of Jesus’s original message. There is no word “Trinity” in the Bible while the ENTIRE base of modern day Christianity is staked on this philosophy.

I guess the question to Atheists, who were former Christians, is; do you think it’s a false concept that is flawed to the core and has been failing the test of time?
I know people don't like to hear this, but Christianity was a cult. And it would have stayed a cult if not for Emperor Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome.

Even assuming Christ existed, I very much doubt there was one person named Jesus, a carpenter who in his 30s was crucified for being a cult leader.

No. There are no real contemporary historical sources that bear this out. Roman historians only talked about Jesus in the way that we might talk about someone else's religion. Just because, for instance, I write an historical document describing how Hindus worship Ganesh does NOT mean I'm claiming Ganesh is at all real. So it goes with Jesus.

Remember that Christianity is merely an offshoot of Judaism. Those who did not believe that Jesus was the foretold messiah remained Jews. Those Jews who believed Jesus was the foretold messiah became Christians.

So how does one merge the Christ cult with Judaeism? Simple. Make Jesus and Yahweh one and the same. Hence why we have this crazy story of Yahweh sacrificing himself to himself and all of that nonsense.

It was done in this haphazard, makeshift way to give credibility to the Christ cult. Otherwise, you just have a guy named Jesus independently preaching nonsense that few people would care about. In order to attract Jews to the Christ cult, as i said, they made up the whole story of Jesus and Yahweh being one and the same.

But, consider the reality that no one ever heard of Yahweh or Jesus except where there were Hebrews. The Chinese didn't know about Yahweh/Jesus. The Hindus in the Indus Valley knew nothing about Yahweh/Jesus. The Aboriginals in Australia never heard of Yahweh/Jesus. The entire western hemisphere never heard anything about Yahweh/Jesus. Which is pretty damn odd for a god that was supposed to love every single human and wanted everyone to go to heaven.

Why would a god who created quadrillions of light years of space -- and quadrillions more stars, planets, moons, asteroids, and comets -- and then, once done, focus all of his attention on some obscure little tribe in a primitive backwater even during the Bronze Age? And for no explainable reason? Why just the Hebrews? What made them so damn special? Well ... nothing that anyone can tell.

And where did they come from? Were Adam and Eve Hebrew? Who the hell knows? The Hebrews simply burst onto the historical stage with this crazy religion -- completely out of nowhere.

Which tells me that ... the Hebrews made all of this up. All of it. Including the so-called Trinity. Because most of them were Hebrews ... but Christian Hebrews. Those who went over to the Christ cult. It's the only REAL explanation as to why this all-powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent god was never heard about except where there were Hebrews.

It's all fiction. Not just the Trinity. But ALL of it. The New Testament is replete with cult-like rules, the same kind of rules you would hear from a modern day cult leader. Even the concept of Hell was designed to keep people from leaving the cult. Jesus -- whoever that was -- didn't want to lose anyone; he didn't want anyone going back to traditional Judaeism or being seduced by other religions. What better way than scaring everyone half to death with visions of hellfire if they so much as looked at a different religion?

This makes a lot more sense than an omnipotent god sacrificing himself to himself by having his son, who is really Yahweh, sacrificed on a cross in order to forgive humanity for a stupid rule he himself made up in the first place. But ... not really ... since Jesus is only dead for the weekend. Then he flies bodily into heaven -- like Muhammed and his flying horse. But without the horse. And even though we're supposed to be forgiven, all of the punishments from original sin are still in place.

It still hurts to give birth. We still grow old and die. There are still horrible sins and atrocities and war. We still have to farm and labor for our food. Even the snakes never got their feet back and still have to slither around in the dust. Why hasn't this so-called blood sacrifice (which is bad enough -- to base the entire foundation of one's religion around something as fundamentally evil as blood sacrifices) ... why hasn't this sacrificed changed anything? At all? It's like saying, "Sure, I forgive you. But I'm still going to afflict every human being from Adam throughout every person until the end of time. You can almost hear Yahweh barking out one of those super-villain laughs ... like when the superhero realizes he's been duped. And Yahweh throws his head back and goes, "Muhuahuahawahahahahahahahahaha!"

This nonsense never should have withstood the test of time.
 
Old 12-05-2023, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Middle America
11,066 posts, read 7,139,669 times
Reputation: 16973
^ Nope. LOL
 
Old 12-05-2023, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,777 posts, read 13,670,239 times
Reputation: 17809
Quote:
I guess the question to Atheists, who were former Christians, is; do you think it’s a false concept that is flawed to the core and has been failing the test of time?
I certainly don't think the Trinity thing is dealbreaker more than anything else.

In fact I don't even understand why the Trinity is even controversial in Christendom.

You got Yahweh... who's been around forever.

You got Jesus... who may or may not have been around forever... may or may not have been God's son or God himself (oneness).

And Christians don't dispute that those two parts of the "Godhead" exist. As either one entity or two.

Now your Holy Spirit is a problem. But it doesn't have to be. It may not be a separate entity... just another name for Yahweh or Jesus... whichever you prefer. People use them interchangeably as it is. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit dwells in your heart.

There are other places where the Holy Spirit gets precedence. "The Holy Spirit convicted me" for instance. Why can't you just say God or Jesus spirit "convicted" you.

"Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues." Why not Baptism of Jesus/God's spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues."

I don't think the Trinity thing is really an issue for non believers compared to many other things. To me, the fact that Christians can't agree on so many basic fundamental doctrines (including Trinity) that are supposed to be laid out by a "perfect book" is way more problematic.

And I would say that Shirina mentioned my biggest issue and that was the one where it is clear that Yahweh really wasn't concerned about anybody else in the world besides the Hebrews until Paul opened Christianity up for gentiles. And it is clear that Paul did that because he wanted a wider audience for his message.
 
Old 12-05-2023, 05:09 PM
 
63,779 posts, read 40,047,381 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I know people don't like to hear this, but Christianity was a cult. And it would have stayed a cult if not for Emperor Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome.

Even assuming Christ existed, I very much doubt there was one person named Jesus, a carpenter who in his 30s was crucified for being a cult leader.

No. There are no real contemporary historical sources that bear this out. Roman historians only talked about Jesus in the way that we might talk about someone else's religion. Just because, for instance, I write an historical document describing how Hindus worship Ganesh does NOT mean I'm claiming Ganesh is at all real. So it goes with Jesus.

Remember that Christianity is merely an offshoot of Judaism. Those who did not believe that Jesus was the foretold messiah remained Jews. Those Jews who believed Jesus was the foretold messiah became Christians.

So how does one merge the Christ cult with Judaeism? Simple. Make Jesus and Yahweh one and the same. Hence why we have this crazy story of Yahweh sacrificing himself to himself and all of that nonsense.

It was done in this haphazard, makeshift way to give credibility to the Christ cult. Otherwise, you just have a guy named Jesus independently preaching nonsense that few people would care about. In order to attract Jews to the Christ cult, as i said, they made up the whole story of Jesus and Yahweh being one and the same.

But, consider the reality that no one ever heard of Yahweh or Jesus except where there were Hebrews. The Chinese didn't know about Yahweh/Jesus. The Hindus in the Indus Valley knew nothing about Yahweh/Jesus. The Aboriginals in Australia never heard of Yahweh/Jesus. The entire western hemisphere never heard anything about Yahweh/Jesus. Which is pretty damn odd for a god that was supposed to love every single human and wanted everyone to go to heaven.

Why would a god who created quadrillions of light years of space -- and quadrillions more stars, planets, moons, asteroids, and comets -- and then, once done, focus all of his attention on some obscure little tribe in a primitive backwater even during the Bronze Age? And for no explainable reason? Why just the Hebrews? What made them so damn special? Well ... nothing that anyone can tell.

And where did they come from? Were Adam and Eve Hebrew? Who the hell knows? The Hebrews simply burst onto the historical stage with this crazy religion -- completely out of nowhere.

Which tells me that ... the Hebrews made all of this up. All of it. Including the so-called Trinity. Because most of them were Hebrews ... but Christian Hebrews. Those who went over to the Christ cult. It's the only REAL explanation as to why this all-powerful, omnipotent and omnipresent god was never heard about except where there were Hebrews.

It's all fiction. Not just the Trinity. But ALL of it. The New Testament is replete with cult-like rules, the same kind of rules you would hear from a modern day cult leader. Even the concept of Hell was designed to keep people from leaving the cult. Jesus -- whoever that was -- didn't want to lose anyone; he didn't want anyone going back to traditional Judaeism or being seduced by other religions. What better way than scaring everyone half to death with visions of hellfire if they so much as looked at a different religion?

This makes a lot more sense than an omnipotent god sacrificing himself to himself by having his son, who is really Yahweh, sacrificed on a cross in order to forgive humanity for a stupid rule he himself made up in the first place. But ... not really ... since Jesus is only dead for the weekend. Then he flies bodily into heaven -- like Muhammed and his flying horse. But without the horse. And even though we're supposed to be forgiven, all of the punishments from original sin are still in place.

It still hurts to give birth. We still grow old and die. There are still horrible sins and atrocities and war. We still have to farm and labor for our food. Even the snakes never got their feet back and still have to slither around in the dust. Why hasn't this so-called blood sacrifice (which is bad enough -- to base the entire foundation of one's religion around something as fundamentally evil as blood sacrifices) ... why hasn't this sacrificed changed anything? At all? It's like saying, "Sure, I forgive you. But I'm still going to afflict every human being from Adam throughout every person until the end of time. You can almost hear Yahweh barking out one of those super-villain laughs ... like when the superhero realizes he's been duped. And Yahweh throws his head back and goes, "Muhuahuahawahahahahahahahahaha!"

This nonsense never should have withstood the test of time.
It astounds me that it has for over two millennia and counting!!!
 
Old 12-05-2023, 11:00 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,221 posts, read 26,417,924 times
Reputation: 16350
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
I certainly don't think the Trinity thing is dealbreaker more than anything else.

In fact I don't even understand why the Trinity is even controversial in Christendom.

You got Yahweh... who's been around forever.

You got Jesus... who may or may not have been around forever... may or may not have been God's son or God himself (oneness).

And Christians don't dispute that those two parts of the "Godhead" exist. As either one entity or two.

Now your Holy Spirit is a problem. But it doesn't have to be. It may not be a separate entity... just another name for Yahweh or Jesus... whichever you prefer. People use them interchangeably as it is. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit dwells in your heart.

There are other places where the Holy Spirit gets precedence. "The Holy Spirit convicted me" for instance. Why can't you just say God or Jesus spirit "convicted" you.
I don't know why the Holy Spirit should be a problem for anyone though it obviously is. Those who insist that the Holy Spirit is not a 'person' but is just a force, ignore or attempt to explain away, among other passages, Romans 8:26-27 which states that the Holy Spirit has a mind which 'He who searches the heart knows.' And that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

So two things in that passage. One is that the Holy Spirit has a mind of his own which is known by 'He who searches the heart' - presumably God the Father. This means that the passage is saying that the Holy Spirit is a 'person' who is distinct from God the Father. He has his own mind and thus is not a mere force or influence. And two, is that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. To intercede means that the one who intercedes intercedes between two or more parties. The Holy Spirit is interceding between God and the saints. A mere force can't intercede. Only an intelligent being can intercede.

Yet, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was distinct from himself. And the Holy Spirit himself is said to be God. This makes the Holy Spirit distinct from both the Father and from Jesus. All of whom are said in the Bible to be God. Thus, different doctrines have arisen to explain the relationship between the three - modalism, tri-theism, and trinitarianism are three differing attempts to explain the relationship between God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

The fact that according to the Bible the Holy Spirit has a mind which is known by God should inform a person that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent being who is distinct from the Father. But people have a way of sticking with what they believe regardless of information which should cause any objective person to modify their beliefs concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 06:58 AM
 
63,779 posts, read 40,047,381 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
I don't know why the Holy Spirit should be a problem for anyone though it obviously is. Those who insist that the Holy Spirit is not a 'person' but is just a force, ignore or attempt to explain away, among other passages, Romans 8:26-27 which states that the Holy Spirit has a mind which 'He who searches the heart knows.' And that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

So two things in that passage. One is that the Holy Spirit has a mind of his own which is known by 'He who searches the heart' - presumably God the Father. This means that the passage is saying that the Holy Spirit is a 'person' who is distinct from God the Father. He has his own mind and thus is not a mere force or influence. And two, is that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. To intercede means that the one who intercedes intercedes between two or more parties. The Holy Spirit is interceding between God and the saints. A mere force can't intercede. Only an intelligent being can intercede.

Yet, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was distinct from himself. And the Holy Spirit himself is said to be God. This makes the Holy Spirit distinct from both the Father and from Jesus. All of whom are said in the Bible to be God. Thus, different doctrines have arisen to explain the relationship between the three - modalism, tri-theism, and trinitarianism are three differing attempts to explain the relationship between God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

The fact that according to the Bible the Holy Spirit has a mind which is known by God should inform a person that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent being who is distinct from the Father. But people have a way of sticking with what they believe regardless of information which should cause any objective person to modify their beliefs concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the "person" who wa known as Jesus while in His physical body but who is now in His spiritual body. It is not rocket science or any kind of supernatural mystery. Our carnal ancestors would never have accepted that concept because they were terrified of Spirits.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,777 posts, read 13,670,239 times
Reputation: 17809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
I don't know why the Holy Spirit should be a problem for anyone though it obviously is.

The fact that according to the Bible the Holy Spirit has a mind which is known by God should inform a person that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent being who is distinct from the Father. But people have a way of sticking with what they believe regardless of information which should cause any objective person to modify their beliefs concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit.
You just pointed out the problem. People get caught up in the idea that an "intelligent being who is distinct from the father" is actually a second God.

In my other post I sort of directed that toward how a oneness type person could accept the trinity concept without actually believing in "three persons".

At this point I'd say a trinity believing person is best off going with the "ice, water, steam" model. One God with three forms.

I think a lot of people would have an issue having to visualize a board meeting in heaven.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 09:46 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,221 posts, read 26,417,924 times
Reputation: 16350
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The Holy Spirit is the "person" who wa known as Jesus while in His physical body but who is now in His spiritual body. It is not rocket science or any kind of supernatural mystery. Our carnal ancestors would never have accepted that concept because they were terrified of Spirits.
No.
 
Old 12-06-2023, 09:59 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,221 posts, read 26,417,924 times
Reputation: 16350
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
You just pointed out the problem. People get caught up in the idea that an "intelligent being who is distinct from the father" is actually a second God.
That's true. Philo of Alexandria was not a Christian, but he did consider the Logos or Word to be a second god.
Quote:
In my other post I sort of directed that toward how a oneness type person could accept the trinity concept without actually believing in "three persons".

At this point I'd say a trinity believing person is best off going with the "ice, water, steam" model. One God with three forms.

I think a lot of people would have an issue having to visualize a board meeting in heaven.
However, 'one God in three forms' sounds more like Modalism rather than Trinitarianism. I don't personally see the need to use models to describe the Trinity. God simply exists in a way that is different from created beings.
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