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Old 12-06-2023, 11:16 AM
 
29,526 posts, read 9,700,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It astounds me that it has for over two millennia and counting!!!
Astounding in many ways, yes, but when we consider how people come to believe all manner of things they do, it's really not surprising to see the same thing continue. Always seems to me the perseverance is largely because people have some sort of personal experience they associate with the existence of a god, and from there it's easy to be "off and running" with whatever religion resonates with that person. Millions and millions of them. Why? Because we're only human after all.

You too, with personal experience, are no different...

 
Old 12-10-2023, 04:47 PM
 
Location: USA
18,489 posts, read 9,151,071 times
Reputation: 8522
The Trinity thing was never really a “stumbling block” to me when I was still a Christian. It was the divisions within Christianity that turned me to atheism.

If the Christian God couldn’t even keep his own religion from disintegrating into thousands of warring sects, then what good was he? The simplest explanation to me was this: the Christian God didn’t exist.

After I concluded that the Christian God wasn’t real, everything made sense.

Last edited by Freak80; 12-10-2023 at 05:01 PM.. Reason: inconsistent tense
 
Old 12-13-2023, 12:46 PM
 
Location: NSW
3,797 posts, read 2,992,667 times
Reputation: 1367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
The Trinity thing was never really a “stumbling block” to me when I was still a Christian. It was the divisions within Christianity that turned me to atheism.

If the Christian God couldn’t even keep his own religion from disintegrating into thousands of warring sects, then what good was he? The simplest explanation to me was this: the Christian God didn’t exist.

After I concluded that the Christian God wasn’t real, everything made sense.
Your first paragraph I can perfectly understand.
The Trinity is one of the few doctrines Catholics and most Protestants have in common.
There are a few Non-Trinitarian sects within Christianity , and I can see how they come to that conclusion too.
The word “Trinity” is never actually mentioned in the Bible.
The Bible is also open to interpretation and has many different versions and translations.
This could easily be another sticking point too.
There are groups saying that the 1611 King James Version is the only one that is true and uncorrupted.
I for one certainly don’t subscribe to that theory.
 
Old 12-13-2023, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Middle America
11,061 posts, read 7,132,082 times
Reputation: 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
If the Christian God couldn’t even keep his own religion from disintegrating into thousands of warring sects, then what good was he?
I think the argument the Christians would present is that it's not that God couldn't do that or prevent that, it's that he gives us freewill and choice. People will show value and appreciation for him and his wishes (or not) by our choices and actions. So that has to be left alone and untouched by him.

There are Christians who do not align with any group or sect, and see that as foolish and counterproductive, just like you. But they don't chuck the whole thing due to the decisions of other people.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 12-13-2023 at 02:24 PM..
 
Old 12-13-2023, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,254,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
I think the argument the Christians would present is that it's not that God couldn't do that or prevent that, it's that he gives us freewill and choice. People will show value and appreciation for him and his wishes (or not) by our choices and actions.
This to me is the core of the total incoherence that is Christianity. God is this universe-creating, perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being, and... also has wishes? Such a being wouldn't need to wish for anything.

God just decided one day to give us this supposed "free will"... so, that implies he has the power to take it away, as well. So therefore ultimately he's enabling whatever bad things going on that his humans are doing.

You've got the problem of evil, the omnipotence paradox, the free will paradox... but the biggest one to me is the incompatibility of God's supposed properties, the facts of God's physical universe of particles that make all of this up including our bodies and brains and literally everything, and then God's supposed wishes for us.

God knows the presence of every single particle in all existence, at every single point in all of time. Therefore, he understands exactly why every event happens the way that it does, which would include everything that goes into me choosing to sit here and type this sentence at this exact minute tonight.

He knows everything about the chemistry of my brain, the reason for every conscious or subconscious thing happening in my brain (and body), my entire genetics, my entire genetic lineage and history, every single environmental factor, every single person I've ever interacted with in my entire life in any way, etc. etc.

Where does that leave any room for his being surprised, disappointed, approving, not approving, expecting or not expecting... anything that I do, or that anyone does?

Is, for example, the Ukraine War, happening in some kind of supernatural realm outside of God's vision or power? If not, then how did such a being not already know exactly how it was going to play out, even long before Earth was even formed, or the dinosaurs roamed the surface?

He either designed this universe or he didn't. This universe, which includes all this senseless violence. He's either the God that Christians describe, or he's not. Christians have a self-contradicting conception of God.
 
Old 12-14-2023, 02:41 AM
 
Location: Middle America
11,061 posts, read 7,132,082 times
Reputation: 16970
Yep, it's all nonsense. LOL Freedom of thought in action. Now back to the trinity and atheism; two matters I don't subscribe to. I'll gladly spare others of the longwinded personal manifestos!

Last edited by Thoreau424; 12-14-2023 at 03:12 AM..
 
Old 12-14-2023, 11:02 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,456 posts, read 3,908,860 times
Reputation: 7456
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
This to me is the core of the total incoherence that is Christianity. God is this universe-creating, perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being, and... also has wishes? Such a being wouldn't need to wish for anything.

God just decided one day to give us this supposed "free will"... so, that implies he has the power to take it away, as well. So therefore ultimately he's enabling whatever bad things going on that his humans are doing.

You've got the problem of evil, the omnipotence paradox, the free will paradox... but the biggest one to me is the incompatibility of God's supposed properties, the facts of God's physical universe of particles that make all of this up including our bodies and brains and literally everything, and then God's supposed wishes for us.

God knows the presence of every single particle in all existence, at every single point in all of time. Therefore, he understands exactly why every event happens the way that it does, which would include everything that goes into me choosing to sit here and type this sentence at this exact minute tonight.

He knows everything about the chemistry of my brain, the reason for every conscious or subconscious thing happening in my brain (and body), my entire genetics, my entire genetic lineage and history, every single environmental factor, every single person I've ever interacted with in my entire life in any way, etc. etc.

Where does that leave any room for his being surprised, disappointed, approving, not approving, expecting or not expecting... anything that I do, or that anyone does?

Is, for example, the Ukraine War, happening in some kind of supernatural realm outside of God's vision or power? If not, then how did such a being not already know exactly how it was going to play out, even long before Earth was even formed, or the dinosaurs roamed the surface?

He either designed this universe or he didn't. This universe, which includes all this senseless violence. He's either the God that Christians describe, or he's not. Christians have a self-contradicting conception of God.
As a (Christian) kid, I used to occasionally obsess over the fact that God knew all the actions I was eventually going to choose to take via my own 'free will'. I remember praying on at least one occasion that He'd prevent me from doing future evil, not just within the near future, but at any random critical juncture X when I might be presented with a moral dilemma. I didn't think of it in quite those terms at, say, age eight, but the sentiment was basically the same. The Lord's Prayer includes lines about deliverance from evil and resisting (or avoiding) temptation, but such prayers are/were typically recited rather mindlessly, without thought for future situations that could arise where such words would have in-the-moment relevance.

Now, as an atheist, I think back on those well-intentioned but futile prayers to the void as tragic folly at its finest.
 
Old 12-14-2023, 11:48 AM
 
29,526 posts, read 9,700,562 times
Reputation: 3466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
As a (Christian) kid, I used to occasionally obsess over the fact that God knew all the actions I was eventually going to choose to take via my own 'free will'. I remember praying on at least one occasion that He'd prevent me from doing future evil, not just within the near future, but at any random critical juncture X when I might be presented with a moral dilemma. I didn't think of it in quite those terms at, say, age eight, but the sentiment was basically the same. The Lord's Prayer includes lines about deliverance from evil and resisting (or avoiding) temptation, but such prayers are/were typically recited rather mindlessly, without thought for future situations that could arise where such words would have in-the-moment relevance.

Now, as an atheist, I think back on those well-intentioned but futile prayers to the void as tragic folly at its finest.
Assuming you never got around to doing future evil, nothing serious anyway, stands to reason that God DID help you prevent from doing future evil...

This whole "free will" argument or notion is full of issues. On the one hand we are supposedly given free will but at the same time how many religious people ask God for guidance? "Look to God for guidance," and so often believe they are given that guidance. I suppose one could argue they have the free will to follow that guidance or not, but really? Is God giving us guidance to help us with our free will? If so, are we really able to exercise free will if we think God is there giving us guidance?

Reminds me of how my kids always tease me about times when they were kids and I asked them to do something like a chore they didn't want to do. To the point they would argue with me about doing it. I would leave them alone in the house while I left to do errands, with this simple advice. "Be sure to do the right thing!"

Always worked like a charm...
 
Old 12-16-2023, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,333,090 times
Reputation: 1507
I don't worship any religion, doctrine, dogma, or church.

I worship Jesus Christ.

And no religion, dogma, doctrine or church can stand in my way.
 
Old 12-16-2023, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,773 posts, read 13,665,953 times
Reputation: 17805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I don't worship any religion, doctrine, dogma, or church.

I worship Jesus Christ.

And no religion, dogma, doctrine or church can stand in my way.
So I guess you aren't a someone who became an atheist because of the trinity doctrine then.

I
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