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Old 12-11-2023, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Southern California
2,065 posts, read 2,160,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
Per Debs:

-Jesus is divine because he was supremely human specifically born into poverty. However, all humans have some divinity in them.

Any thoughts on what you like or don't like about his interpretations, which it is fine to agree or disagree with?
That "thought" about Jesus is incorrect. Jesus was Divine because his soul was completely filled with God's Divine Love. His soul was created to long for this Love, which he began receiving as a child. His soul became completely transformed - filled up with Divine Love - at the time of his baptism with John the Baptist. Jesus never sinned, so it was much easier for him to become Divine on earth. (Something that we can also do, if we so desire.)

We are not born Divine. What we have is the "privilege" to receive it as long as the "privilege" is available. This comes from God and at some point, it will be discontinued, like it was with Adam and Eve (their true names are Aman and Amon). They had that privilege, but we know what happened with them. They got their act together and are Divine like Jesus is.

For those interested, spiritual messages from Jesus, Aman and Amon can be read here: Truth for all People
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:10 AM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,082,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
“I never darken a church door because I hate hypocrisy almost as much as I love the character and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity is a beautiful faith. The only trouble is that there are so pitifully few Christians in the world.” -Eugene Debs


I have a small connection to Eugene Debs, because for some reason my father wanted me to be named after a man...Debs was known as a labor union leader that was arrested for organizing the Pullman Railroad Strike of 1894, for protesting WWI, helping create the socialist Wobblies, and running for president 5 times, once garnering 6% of the votes and once running for president behind bars...

...however, Eugene Debs has some interesting thoughts on Jesus.

Eugene Debs was a "Christian Socialist" and even allowed inmates to compare him to Jesus when arrested as "Little Jesus." He worked with churches that pushed workers rights

Per Debs:

-Claimed that there are very few Christians in the world as most don't follow Jesus' teachings. Thought Christianity was too often corrupted and used to promote a false patriotism and to buttress the rich.

-Generally thought that organized religion is bad (with exceptions) as Churches have deliberately changed the real revolutionary nature of Jesus to support mammon, or unethical profits of the rich, which are in essence the very people who killed Jesus.

-Jesus is divine because he was supremely human specifically born into poverty. However, all humans have some divinity in them.

-Jesus is a revolutionary figure bigger than John Brown, Abraham Lincoln, or Karl Marx.

-Jesus was class conscious, preached love, preached charity, preached solidarity.

-Jesus devoted his life to helping the poor and chastising the rich.

-Jesus discouraged more modern notions of private property.

https://jacobin.com/2021/12/debs-jes...tion-socialism

https://www.religioussocialism.org/e...tian_socialism


Any thoughts on what you like or don't like about his interpretations, which it is fine to agree or disagree with?

I think these are general and generic statements about Jesus which contain a lot of truth - but IMO, these do not address the fundamental issue that pushed the Christian theology off the rails.

And that is, the event of Council of Nicea where this whole Trinity thing was invented under Constantine.

It has come to a point now that entire doctrine now stakes on this flawed philosophy.

Jesus was a human - and not a God or God’s son.
If that’s what he meant when he says, there are so pitifully few Christians in the world, then I agree with him.

One needs to step over Paul and go back to Jesus’s original message - which is absolute monotheism.

Modern day Bible, even though brutally miscegenated, still has traces that indicate that Jesus was a human and a prophet of God.
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Old 12-11-2023, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Middle America
11,061 posts, read 7,132,082 times
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The terms exoteric and esoteric might be useful here. Basically, the exoteric component is the written scriptures and texts. The esoteric side is perhaps the more important: how to use / how to apply the scriptures and texts.

Most churches are entirely lost in the exoteric, and brain dead with the esoteric. A bit like having a car, that you know all about how it works and how the systems go together, and the parts functioning, etc. But you don't know how to drive it.

Debs would be a good example of having the best of both worlds, but emphasizing the esoteric priority of how to use and apply the teachings. When one stays within the teachings for that - and not go outside, like the churches, for direction (really misdirection) - the entire message is cohesive and consistent.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 12-11-2023 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 12-12-2023, 11:01 AM
 
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My thoughts are that he would fit very nicely in churches today that are known as "Progressive Christian". Based on your description of him, he wasn't all that concerned with what Jesus actually taught, but instead liked the image of Jesus he had in his mind. It sounds like he used the idea of Jesus to push his own views.

And there may be some that would point out the same issue exists in what some would call "Fundamentalist Christianity". And I'd agree. If one's views differ from Scripture, they're wrong.
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Old 12-12-2023, 12:09 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
My thoughts are that he would fit very nicely in churches today that are known as "Progressive Christian". Based on your description of him, he wasn't all that concerned with what Jesus actually taught, but instead liked the image of Jesus he had in his mind. It sounds like he used the idea of Jesus to push his own views.

And there may be some that would point out the same issue exists in what some would call "Fundamentalist Christianity". And I'd agree. If one's views differ from Scripture, they're wrong.
Fundamentalists should call themselves "Scriptians" instead of Christians because they follow scripture, NOT Christ, IMO.
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Old 12-12-2023, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,438 posts, read 12,775,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Fundamentalists should call themselves "Scriptians" instead of Christians because they follow scripture, NOT Christ, IMO.
How to follow Christ is learned by reading scripture.
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Old 12-12-2023, 04:34 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Fundamentalists should call themselves "Scriptians" instead of Christians because they follow scripture, NOT Christ, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
How to follow Christ is learned by reading scripture.
No it is NOT!. It is by learning the persona of Jesus Himself and His "mind of Christ" which is identical to the "mind of God" and His Holy Spirit. If you are NOT "in Christ" (in the "mind of Christ") you are not guided by His Holy Spirit, no matter what mumbo jumbo or supernatural magic you believe. Knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, and that is all about your state of mind (Spirit).

Philippians 2:5-30 King James Version
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
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Old 12-12-2023, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,438 posts, read 12,775,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No it is NOT!. It is by learning the persona of Jesus Himself and His "mind of Christ" which is identical to the "mind of God" and His Holy Spirit. If you are NOT "in Christ" (in the "mind of Christ") you are not guided by His Holy Spirit, no matter what mumbo jumbo or supernatural magic you believe. Knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, and that is all about your state of mind (Spirit).

Philippians 2:5-30 King James Version
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
You made my point.
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Old 12-12-2023, 05:40 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
You made my point.
No I did not. There is a big difference between thinking the scriptures themselves tell us about God and the descriptions of Jesus's actions, attitudes, and character in the scripture narrative tell us about God. Your belief in the former is misguided.
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Old 12-12-2023, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,438 posts, read 12,775,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No I did not. There is a big difference between thinking the scriptures themselves tell us about God and the descriptions of Jesus's actions, attitudes, and character in the scripture narrative tell us about God. Your belief in the former is misguided.
So you can use the scriptures to make your point but I can’t to make mine.
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