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Old 01-02-2024, 11:09 AM
 
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Here is another article showing Pew's research.....

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...vided-society/


Here is their chart....





So again the word "secular" means certain things to certain people. This is what I heard, that most are "secular", but again being Jewish comprise of religion and culture. When I say I'm Christian, we automatically know we're talking about faith for the most part. (There are cultural aspects to Christianity) Yet when someone say they are Jewish, they are talking their whole being through and through. It could include belief in God and all that entails as well, but at the heart its a way of life. If I said I was a secular Christian, most would see me as an atheist and non-Christian. In our minds there is no such thing as a "secular-Christian". Its not so for a secular Jew. Most would simply see that as a Jewish person who is not traditional, not necessarily saying anything about their belief in God.

Last edited by Heavenese; 01-02-2024 at 11:18 AM..

 
Old 01-02-2024, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Virginia
10,111 posts, read 6,455,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Most of the people in Israel are probably secular in thought, but still hold to their traditions. Of course right now there is no physical temple, but if they rebuild it, it would give the people a sense of their heritage. For the same reasons Israel back then rejected Jesus, they will reject the Anti-Christ when he claims to be something. When Jesus comes back, at that time it is said Israel will receive Jesus as Messiah.
"It is said" where? In the NT? Because it's certainly not said anywhere else I know of. We've already BTDT.
 
Old 01-02-2024, 12:17 PM
 
2,455 posts, read 1,457,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
"It is said" where? In the NT? Because it's certainly not said anywhere else I know of. We've already BTDT.

Well, we've seen this kind of thing played out before in Israel's history. We know how the sons of Israel didn't want Joseph to rule over them, and thus wanted to kill him. Ultimately they sold him into slavery and assumed he died in slavery. However as we know, they were reunited with Joseph and were reconciled. Joseph forgave his brothers and wept loudly with them. The prophet Zechariah speaks a day is coming where something similar will happen for the nation of Israel...........


Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

On that day the wailing in Jerusalem will be as great as the wailing of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

The land will mourn, each clan on its own: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,

the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,

and all the remaining clans and their wives.
.............


Christians believe this is referring to Jesus when He returns.
 
Old 01-02-2024, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Virginia
10,111 posts, read 6,455,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Well, we've seen this kind of thing play out before in Israel's history. We know how the sons of Israel didn't want Joseph to rule over them, and thus wanted to kill him. Ultimately they sold him into slavery and assumed he died in slavery. However as we know, they were reunited with Joseph and were reconciled. Joseph forgave his brothers and wept loudly with them. The prophet Zechariah speaks a day is coming where something similar will happen for the nation of Israel...........


Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

On that day the wailing in Jerusalem will be as great as the wailing of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

The land will mourn, each clan on its own: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,

the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,

and all the remaining clans and their wives.
.............


Christians believe this is referring to Jesus when He returns.
Christians believe a lot of things about Jews that are incorrect.
 
Old 01-02-2024, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
23,203 posts, read 10,485,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
Christians believe a lot of things about Jews that are incorrect.
Omg, you said a mouthful there, man I remember that brainwashed stereotype maybe alot like a non denominational might feel back in the 70's and 80's. Take it from me, there are all sorts of Jews and everything we are born and raised learning about Jews is just wrong on so many levels.

It's just so shocking, how I thought 40 years ago verses today, and we all think the same thing about them or close, always wrong
 
Old 01-02-2024, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Western Pennsylvania
4 posts, read 1,126 times
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If God is absolutely perfect and hates sin and evil so much, why does an apparently evil world exist in the first place?
 
Old 01-02-2024, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
When it comes to secular countries, Israel is hardly a good example of one.
Why not? I doubt they're any more religious overall than the US. Probably less so, from what I understand. The US is still the most religious of all of the wealthy countries of the world, despite the trend of decline there. And we're definitely considered a secular country, right? Israel is definitely not a theocracy.

I'd say Israel are about on par with nearby Turkey or Greece in that regard, which are both secular. Probably like 90% in those countries when asked, will identify as a Muslim or a Greek Orthodox Christian, respectively, but, like Israel, are not theocracies, and are either officially (in Turkey's case), or in practice (in Greece's case), secular countries.

Some of Israel's laws are fully secular; some are based in Judaism and traditional Jewish law, but the overall country is generally pretty secular. And it's by far the most secular country in that whole middle eastern region of the world, until you get up to Turkey, which is partly in Europe.

Israel was not founded as a religious country, or to be a religious country, or even by religious people necessarily. It was founded in the post-war 1940's on the basis of the Jewish nationalism movement at that time, which is of course a whole different thing than religion. Zionism was for the atheist Jews, too.

The complicating factor about people identifying as Jewish is that it's both an ethnicity and a religion, or kind of a mix of both (with a set of cultural traditions), and many Jews are atheists or 100% not religious at all, and many Jews are just sort of kind of nominally Jewish, and some are Orthodox and very religious. But the average Jew, even probably in Israel I'd guess, is probably not a very religious person at all.
 
Old 01-02-2024, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,277,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac0x40 View Post
If God is absolutely perfect and hates sin and evil so much, why does an apparently evil world exist in the first place?
Because of some total incoherent nonsense concept of "free will", is what they will usually answer. Something along those lines. Adam did something, or whatever they'll blah blah about from their stories, but it comes down to God giving humans "free will", and free will includes the ability to choose evil things. (Which doesn't explain the hostility of the natural universe, but we'll put all that aside.)

We may feel like we have free will, but we actually don't. Everything that ever happens anywhere (including in our brain), is processes, reactions, physics and/or some kind of quantum randomness. Nowhere in there, is free will. Our behaviors as humans are determined by everything that goes into causing each action and each choice, and by our limitations. Genetics, environment, circumstances... all shape our personalities. And every thought we have, emerges from our subconscious- this has actually been studied and tested.

Putting the question of hard determinism aside- even if there is no determinism- free will still makes no sense as a concept. If each choice we make is a product of all of our various influences, then how is that free will? And if it's not- if it's because of some kind of quantum thing going on, then similarly- how is that an example of us being free?

As with all of the religious concepts, it all relies on a suspension of critical thinking, using convenient supernatural concepts (like souls) to explain everything, that you're not supposed to think about rationally, or in terms of the actual real universe that we actually are living in.
 
Old 01-02-2024, 11:48 PM
 
63,891 posts, read 40,164,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Because of some total incoherent nonsense concept of "free will", is what they will usually answer. Something along those lines. Adam did something, or whatever they'll blah blah about from their stories, but it comes down to God giving humans "free will", and free will includes the ability to choose evil things. (Which doesn't explain the hostility of the natural universe, but we'll put all that aside.)

We may feel like we have free will, but we actually don't. Everything that ever happens anywhere (including in our brain), is processes, reactions, physics and/or some kind of quantum randomness. Nowhere in there, is free will. Our behaviors as humans are determined by everything that goes into causing each action and each choice, and by our limitations. Genetics, environment, circumstances... all shape our personalities. And every thought we have, emerges from our subconscious- this has actually been studied and tested.

Putting the question of hard determinism aside- even if there is no determinism- free will still makes no sense as a concept. If each choice we make is a product of all of our various influences, then how is that free will? And if it's not- if it's because of some kind of quantum thing going on, then similarly- how is that an example of us being free?

As with all of the religious concepts, it all relies on a suspension of critical thinking, using convenient supernatural concepts (like souls) to explain everything, that you're not supposed to think about rationally, or in terms of the actual real universe that we actually are living in.
Hard determinism simply asserts that WE do NOT exist; that is the WE that we experience as ourselves. It is in accord with the opinion of neuroscientists who also believe WE (our homunculi) are illusions. They are wrong. I am not an illusion and neither are any of you. We just exist in the quantum foam as BEC's produced by our brains' transformation of the energy we consume into "composites of the resonant synaptic firings across the entire brain." It is the composites of BECs (We) who make all the decisions. We are not automatons or dead machines. The BECs that comprise us do not reside in our brains but in the universal field that establishes our Reality; what we refer to as the heavens or the universe.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,277,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Hard determinism simply asserts that WE do NOT exist; that is the WE that we experience as ourselves. It is in accord with the opinion of neuroscientists who also believe WE (our homunculi) are illusions. They are wrong. I am not an illusion and neither are any of you. We just exist in the quantum foam as BEC's produced by our brains' transformation of the energy we consume into "composites of the resonant synaptic firings across the entire brain." It is the composites of BECs (We) who make all the decisions. We are not automatons or dead machines. The BECs that comprise us do not reside in our brains but in the universal field that establishes our Reality; what we refer to as the heavens or the universe.
Yes, 'you' are an illusion. And 'I' am an illusion as well. The self/ or the ego/ the "I" concept that we all have a sense of in our conscious experience, is ultimately an illusion. It is a construction of our consciousness. It's perhaps useful to us for whatever purposes it helps with, but it is an illusion, and not actually a real thing.

We do definitely experience that illusion of the self, I know I do- but, it is an illusion nonetheless. Because factually there is no magical unchanged passenger that's riding around in our heads. Every instant of time is a constant changing reaction/constantly ongoing process, and every state in our brain and bodies are constantly changing, leaving no room for any type of static entity, separate from this process, that would ever continue from moment to moment. Our bodies are a physical part of the universe, and our brains are wired to the rest of our bodies. The stream of impulses that drive our actions all arise from the subconscious.

"Free will" is the same thing. It's an illusory perception of how we experience our consciousness, and the whole narrative of our 'self'.
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