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Old 01-03-2024, 06:08 AM
 
2,434 posts, read 1,451,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac0x40 View Post
If God is absolutely perfect and hates sin and evil so much, why does an apparently evil world exist in the first place?

The world is in rebellion against God. It was first kicked off by a divine rebel, and he deceived humanity to join in. God gave us the power to choose between life and death, and we have been temporarily subjugated to the fall of Adam and Eve's choice. However, God made a way back to Himself. So we each still have the choice between life and death.

Many are still slaves to the sin nature, but we can be free if we choose to serve Yahweh.

 
Old 01-03-2024, 06:24 AM
 
2,434 posts, read 1,451,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Because of some total incoherent nonsense concept of "free will", is what they will usually answer. Something along those lines. Adam did something, or whatever they'll blah blah about from their stories, but it comes down to God giving humans "free will", and free will includes the ability to choose evil things. (Which doesn't explain the hostility of the natural universe, but we'll put all that aside.)

We may feel like we have free will, but we actually don't. Everything that ever happens anywhere (including in our brain), is processes, reactions, physics and/or some kind of quantum randomness. Nowhere in there, is free will. Our behaviors as humans are determined by everything that goes into causing each action and each choice, and by our limitations. Genetics, environment, circumstances... all shape our personalities. And every thought we have, emerges from our subconscious- this has actually been studied and tested.

Putting the question of hard determinism aside- even if there is no determinism- free will still makes no sense as a concept. If each choice we make is a product of all of our various influences, then how is that free will? And if it's not- if it's because of some kind of quantum thing going on, then similarly- how is that an example of us being free?

As with all of the religious concepts, it all relies on a suspension of critical thinking, using convenient supernatural concepts (like souls) to explain everything, that you're not supposed to think about rationally, or in terms of the actual real universe that we actually are living in.

Well, free will in terms of choosing life and death. We are free to choose God, or not, which leads to death. So for instance if I don't choose God's ways, then I'm bound to all the limitations you mentioned. I'm a slave to the whims of the subconscious and random fluctuations you've mentioned. Yet choosing God, He gives us a new nature that overcomes all that.


Let me ask you this question. If all that you mention is true, and we are subjugated to all the things you mentioned, then wouldn't it be true I believe what I believe because of my environment? Yes, some and perhaps many do change their mind and reject what they have been taught concerning religion. However perhaps that was just in their wiring. For others, they stay with their beliefs because that to is part of their wiring. Maybe they are not capable of questioning things, or being critical.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 08:10 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,733,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Here is another article showing Pew's research.....

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...vided-society/

Here is their chart....

So again the word "secular" means certain things to certain people. This is what I heard, that most are "secular", but again being Jewish comprise of religion and culture. When I say I'm Christian, we automatically know we're talking about faith for the most part. (There are cultural aspects to Christianity) Yet when someone say they are Jewish, they are talking their whole being through and through. It could include belief in God and all that entails as well, but at the heart its a way of life. If I said I was a secular Christian, most would see me as an atheist and non-Christian. In our minds there is no such thing as a "secular-Christian". Its not so for a secular Jew. Most would simply see that as a Jewish person who is not traditional, not necessarily saying anything about their belief in God.
First you made the claim about how Israel was mostly secular. Now it seems you are wanting to confuse the matter with different definitions of secular and providing other statistics that have little to do with secularism specifically. A clear definition of these terms and proper use of them helps to improve understanding and/or avoid confusion from the beginning.

You make a move in the right direction in any case by quoting other data and statistics from reputable sources like Pew rather than spouting claims based on what you "heard." That's a bit of progress anyway...
 
Old 01-03-2024, 08:20 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,733,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Well, free will in terms of choosing life and death. We are free to choose God, or not, which leads to death. So for instance if I don't choose God's ways, then I'm bound to all the limitations you mentioned. I'm a slave to the whims of the subconscious and random fluctuations you've mentioned. Yet choosing God, He gives us a new nature that overcomes all that.

Let me ask you this question. If all that you mention is true, and we are subjugated to all the things you mentioned, then wouldn't it be true I believe what I believe because of my environment? Yes, some and perhaps many do change their mind and reject what they have been taught concerning religion. However perhaps that was just in their wiring. For others, they stay with their beliefs because that to is part of their wiring. Maybe they are not capable of questioning things, or being critical.
You have a rather limited view about what it is to have free will. Don't you think?

To whatever extent any of us can agree we have free will, free will has allowed me to judge all there is to judge along these lines and choose to live the way I do accordingly. That same free will doesn't have me limited to a choice of "God's ways" and/or thus "bound to all the limitations" referenced. Choosing the truth of these matters as best I am able to able to establish the truth of these matters gives me the nature that overcomes all the rest.

Indeed it is free will that has so many different kinds of people deciding all variety of what to believe as a result of varied abilities to think critically. As well as all variety of emotions and environmental influences that cause so many different people to conclude differently about what is God, what God is up to and/or if a god even exists. It is free will that for the most part allows us to believe whatever we wish to believe. Regardless the facts or truths of these matters.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:01 AM
 
63,833 posts, read 40,118,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Yes, 'you' are an illusion. And 'I' am an illusion as well. The self/ or the ego/ the "I" concept that we all have a sense of in our conscious experience, is ultimately an illusion. It is a construction of our consciousness. It's perhaps useful to us for whatever purposes it helps with, but it is an illusion, and not actually a real thing.

We do definitely experience that illusion of the self, I know I do- but, it is an illusion nonetheless. Because factually there is no magical unchanged passenger that's riding around in our heads. Every instant of time is a constant changing reaction/constantly ongoing process, and every state in our brain and bodies are constantly changing, leaving no room for any type of static entity, separate from this process, that would ever continue from moment to moment. Our bodies are a physical part of the universe, and our brains are wired to the rest of our bodies. The stream of impulses that drive our actions all arise from the subconscious.

"Free will" is the same thing. It's an illusory perception of how we experience our consciousness and the whole narrative of our 'self'.
You and those who agree with you have been gaslighted by faulty extrapolations of science. Amazingly, the very entity (you) that is making these extrapolations and decisions has been dismissed from existence. It is a wonder to behold!
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:16 AM
 
7,364 posts, read 4,146,180 times
Reputation: 16827
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
First you made the claim about how Israel was mostly secular. Now it seems you are wanting to confuse the matter with different definitions of secular and providing other statistics that have little to do with secularism specifically. A clear definition of these terms and proper use of them helps to improve understanding and/or avoid confusion from the beginning.

You make a move in the right direction in any case by quoting other data and statistics from reputable sources like Pew rather than spouting claims based on what you "heard." That's a bit of progress anyway...
Right on the money!

Israel is a theocracy. An article from March 14 - earlier in 2023

Quote:
More than half of the seats in the ruling coalition belong to far-right parties that are driving the very unsecular official agenda. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has forged a compact with the most regressive political formations on the country’s landscape, promising to do their bidding as long as they enable him to stay in power and escape prosecution for his alleged corruption.

The reactionary nature of the incoming coalition was felt on election night itself, since celebrants from some parties in the ruling coalition were almost all male — not surprising since these entities want to relegate women to the sidelines or worse. Israeli feminist groups have expressed concern that actively anti-women policies are in the offing.

Israel’s new governmental makeup is also extremely detrimental for the country’s non-Jewish populations, both within and outside Israel proper. The hardline Zionism that the coalition parties subscribe to views Israeli Arabs as a blight who should have been expelled at the country’s creation. As for the Palestinians, the less said about the current Israeli government’s attitude toward them, the better.
https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...things-secular

There is a divide in Israel (as in many countries) with a shift towards right politics. Right now in Israel, the religious Hassidic/Orthodox Jewish population is increasing. Over time, the Hassidic/Orthodox Jews will be able to outvote the secular voices.

The start of the present war (October 7) was the Jewish settlers' attacks at the al-Aqsa Mosque.

The al-Aqsa Mosque is three things:

Quote:
The Temple Mount is the place where past Jewish temples are commonly believed to have stood, which places it, along with the nearby Western Wall, among the holiest sites in Judaism. According to Jewish tradition and scripture, the First Temple was built by King Solomon, the son of King David, in 957 BCE, and was destroyed by the Neo-Babylonian Empire, together with Jerusalem, in 587 BCE. No archaeological evidence has been found to verify this, but scientific excavations have been limited due to religious sensitivities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

Quote:
The Al-Aqsa mosque compound, atop the site, is the second oldest mosque in Islam, and one of the three Sacred Mosques, the holiest sites in Islam; it is revered as "the Noble Sanctuary". The plaza includes the location regarded as where the Islamic prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven, and served as the first "qibla", the direction Muslims turn towards when praying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is also a central identity symbol for Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians as it contains the Upper Room

Quote:
Strong archaeological evidence shows that the Upper Room is also the location of the first Christian church. After Christ rose from the dead, this place was venerated and converted into a Jewish-Christian synagogue.

This site of the Upper Room has been the traditional place of the Last Supper since the time of Jesus.
https://www.holylandsite.com/the-upper-room

What's the importance of the growing Orthodox population?

Quote:
Orthodox Jewish tradition maintains it is here that the third and final Temple will be built when the Messiah comes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

In order for this to happen, the Orthodox Jews will destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Upper Room to build the Third temple.

Quote:
Jewish texts predict that the Mount will be the site of a Third and final Temple, which will be rebuilt with the coming of the [Jewish] Messiah. A number of vocal Jewish groups now advocate building the Third Temple without delay in order to bring to pass God's "end-time prophetic plans for Israel and the entire world."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount#Third_Temple
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,268,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Well, free will in terms of choosing life and death. We are free to choose God, or not, which leads to death. So for instance if I don't choose God's ways, then I'm bound to all the limitations you mentioned. I'm a slave to the whims of the subconscious and random fluctuations you've mentioned. Yet choosing God, He gives us a new nature that overcomes all that.
'You' are a construct formed within your consciousness, whether 'you' 'choose' to have your God beliefs or not.

It's not that we're 'slaves' to anything- it's that this whole experience of our 'self', is more viewing lounge than control room.

People exist, of course. They really are walking around. Our identities and experiences and the stories of our lives, etc., all do matter and do exist in the sense of what they are, and are real in that sense. But we are not some kind of 'agent' that is separate from the whims of our natural bodies in a natural universe. We are the construction of a conscious experience that is itself just a result of everything that emerges from our subconscious, and on down the line of the processes of biology and physics and every interaction.

When we experience something or think something, we tend to feel like we are an agent, separate from and having that experience, or an agent that's originating up the thoughts, that we think. But in actuality, we literally are the experience and we are the thoughts, which stream in from our animal brains.

At the end of the day, the only 'me' left is an entity that is a social concept. It's basically a convenient shorthand to describe this conceptual experiencing entity over time, or this collection of physical biology that is known as my name.

Quote:
Let me ask you this question. If all that you mention is true, and we are subjugated to all the things you mentioned, then wouldn't it be true I believe what I believe because of my environment? Yes, some and perhaps many do change their mind and reject what they have been taught concerning religion. However perhaps that was just in their wiring. For others, they stay with their beliefs because that to is part of their wiring. Maybe they are not capable of questioning things, or being critical.
There is a reason why you are exactly the person that you are at this moment and believe exactly what you believe, yes. Same for me. That reason is just the sum total of every influence involved thereof. From genetics (how you're wired) to whatever environment factors, to whatever circumstances, to just chance and randomness, the limitations of what you know and understand or not, and just everything that goes into what we are and our states at the present moment, and therefore resultantly our thoughts and sense of experience and identity at this moment.

Which, to be clear, is not fatalism. I'm not arguing fatalism, or destiny. People can change and grow, and are constantly doing so. By all means, we should set goals and try to improve ourselves. Do all the things we have to do and want to do. But, we should also understand and keep in mind that every person at every moment is only exactly what they are capable of being, no more or no less, because the 'self' is ultimately an illusion/construction by our human experience, and not any actual physical thing.

Which, again, is why I hold that the judgmental Christian God stuff is all total nonsense. If there's a God with properties like the religion people often describe, then he knows exactly the state of literally everything at every moment, past and present, including everything streaming into our brains and therefore our minds. And so he would know exactly why everyone does everything that they do, every thought that they have, belief they have or not, etc. If OJ Simpson killed those 2 people in 1995, only God would fully know exactly why that event happened. Why he felt the impulses he did, and why he acted on them. Because, there is no OJ. "OJ" is a bunch of neurons and mammal and brain wiring that was born from his parents, and lived exactly the life he did in the environment he did, etc.

Or whatever else example you want to come up with. Including Hitler.

Any actually existing God would have total and complete 'forgiveness' for everything that's ever 'done' or not, by every conscious being that ever 'existed'. Of every thought ever had, every belief held or not, or anything. Because all of those things would be exactly the universe that he created, or so sayeth the theists.

Not only would God not particularly care if I or you believe in his existence, or whatever the things you're talking about, he would know exactly what everyone believes at all times and why.

I know you Christians like to put up your lazy magic concepts to get around all this pesky stuff, like "souls" "free will", etc., and whatever stretching of things to fit your narrative in an incoherent mess, when reconciled with the facts of the physical reality around you, especially as we discover more about things.

But, again, there would be no 'fooling' an actually omniscient being. There would be no approval or disapproval from such an entity. And a non-omniscient being would not really be a God.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Western Pennsylvania
4 posts, read 1,123 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
The world is in rebellion against God. It was first kicked off by a divine rebel, and he deceived humanity to join in. God gave us the power to choose between life and death, and we have been temporarily subjugated to the fall of Adam and Eve's choice. However, God made a way back to Himself. So we each still have the choice between life and death.

Many are still slaves to the sin nature, but we can be free if we choose to serve Yahweh.
I just don't agree with this "slave to sin" language. Either you are a slave to sin/the devil or a slave to God. There is no being "free".
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:26 AM
 
18,250 posts, read 16,931,760 times
Reputation: 7554
Ask me anything about my God (Yahweh) - If I don't know the answer, I'll tell you


Why do Christians never tell you that Yahweh originally was a minor pagan god of metallurgy in the Canaanite religion and that he had a wife named Asherah. This is her from one of numerous artifacts from the Bronze Age:





So if Yahweh originally was a Canaanite god then Jesus' father is a pagan god which makes Jesus a pagan god, right?
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,268,603 times
Reputation: 7790
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Israel is a theocracy.
By that loose definition, so is the US, then. I don't buy it.

It's a democratic and liberal country, with mostly equal rights for everyone, regardless of their religion. And freedom of religion is generally respected, including atheism. Women in Israel are equal, and can do (and wear) what they want, there's LGBT rights, gay people can be open, people put their rainbow flags up, etc.

Saudi Arabia, is a theocracy.
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