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Old 01-03-2024, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,887 posts, read 7,342,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many are still slaves to the sin nature, but we can be free if we choose to serve Yahweh.
Was that intentionally ironic? To be free, is to serve no one. To have no master. What you're talking about sounds more like comfort.

 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,887 posts, read 7,342,365 times
Reputation: 7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and those who agree with you have been gaslighted by faulty extrapolations of science. Amazingly, the very entity (you) that is making these extrapolations and decisions has been dismissed from existence. It is a wonder to behold!
It's not that I don't exist, as obviously I am reading things and typing this. It's that these concepts, are concepts. Conceptual. What's actually happening is not an agent thinking things and doing things. The thoughts and the resultant actions are the things that are the actually existing things. The consciousness exists, but the feeling of the locus behind my face and skull, is just a feeling of this conscious (often less than conscious) experience, and not a thing that actually separately or physically exists. Processes are constantly going on inside my brain, and that's driving my fingers as I type this, and the decision to type this post.

The universe is having this little back and forth conversation with parts of itself. Nothing inside you or I is separate from the universe. Our experiences of our highly self-aware and intelligent homo sapiens consciousness, are actively constructing this sense of an entity of the self, as processes and change is constantly happening in every part of our brains. The self is not somehow some kind of outside agent to that.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:48 AM
 
29,655 posts, read 9,860,451 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Right on the money!

Israel is a theocracy. An article from March 14 - earlier in 2023

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...things-secular

There is a divide in Israel (as in many countries) with a shift towards right politics. Right now in Israel, the religious Hassidic/Orthodox Jewish population is increasing. Over time, the Hassidic/Orthodox Jews will be able to outvote the secular voices.

The start of the present war (October 7) was the Jewish settlers' attacks at the al-Aqsa Mosque.

The al-Aqsa Mosque is three things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is also a central identity symbol for Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians as it contains the Upper Room

https://www.holylandsite.com/the-upper-room

What's the importance of the growing Orthodox population?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

In order for this to happen, the Orthodox Jews will destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Upper Room to build the Third temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount#Third_Temple
Thanks. Interesting, but I think all this is a bit "over the head" of this thread...
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:51 AM
 
29,655 posts, read 9,860,451 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
By that loose definition, so is the US, then. I don't buy it.

It's a democratic and liberal country, with mostly equal rights for everyone, regardless of their religion. And freedom of religion is generally respected, including atheism. Women in Israel are equal, and can do (and wear) what they want, there's LGBT rights, gay people can be open, people put their rainbow flags up, etc.

Saudi Arabia, is a theocracy.
Perhaps the loose definition is part of the problem, but I think the comparison of Israel and the United States when it comes to secularism is a bit more profound than you seem to be suggesting here. Equal rights is another matter. Is it not?
 
Old 01-03-2024, 10:59 AM
 
29,655 posts, read 9,860,451 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
It's not that I don't exist, as obviously I am reading things and typing this. It's that these concepts, are concepts. Conceptual. What's actually happening is not an agent thinking things and doing things. The thoughts and the resultant actions are the things that are the actually existing things. The consciousness exists, but the feeling of the locus behind my face and skull, is just a feeling of this conscious (often less than conscious) experience, and not a thing that actually separately or physically exists. Processes are constantly going on inside my brain, and that's driving my fingers as I type this, and the decision to type this post.

The universe is having this little back and forth conversation with parts of itself. Nothing inside you or I is separate from the universe. Our experiences of our highly self-aware and intelligent homo sapiens consciousness, are actively constructing this sense of an entity of the self, as processes and change is constantly happening in every part of our brains. The self is not somehow some kind of outside agent to that.
Some people seem to question even whether we exist...

A concept or notion I find somewhat ridiculous to entertain beyond the sort of entertainment I sometimes enjoy from watching shows like "Outer Limits" or "Believe it or not..."

I don't question what happens behind my face and/or in my brain much either. I think I have enough a handle on what are my thoughts, back-and-forth with myself. What is reality and what is not far as I can tell. Not much question about any of that. Not enough to dwell on for long anyway. I'm not all too sure about the universe having this little back-and-forth conversation with parts of itself. That gets a little to close to the notion of Intelligent Design which I'm not convinced is a well justified notion or concept, but I do know I am an part of the universe in many ways that are sometimes difficult to define.

I think I'll leave it at that as it's that time once again for me to sign off from this forum today. Or so that's what the back-and-forth discussion in my brain is concluding at the moment. Or is that you universe?
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,887 posts, read 7,342,365 times
Reputation: 7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Perhaps the loose definition is part of the problem, but I think the comparison of Israel and the United States when it comes to secularism is a bit more profound than you seem to be suggesting here. Equal rights is another matter. Is it not?
Israel is a mostly secular government (with some civil exceptions) that co-exists with a state religion. Having a state religion is not theocracy. Otherwise Greece is a theocracy, which it definitely isn't.

There are only about 6 legit theocracies in the world right now. 5 of those are Islamic states, and one is Vatican City. A theocracy directly derives its full powers from a divine authority (in practice a human religious authority), which is directly exercising governmental powers.

North Korea is sort of a theocracy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

("Necrocracy", as Hitchens aptly put it.)
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:16 AM
 
29,655 posts, read 9,860,451 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Israel is a mostly secular government (with some civil exceptions) that co-exists with a state religion. Having a state religion is not theocracy. Otherwise Greece is a theocracy, which it definitely isn't.

There are only about 6 legit theocracies in the world right now. 5 of those are Islamic states, and one is Vatican City. A theocracy directly derives its full powers from a divine authority (in practice a human religious authority), which is directly exercising governmental powers.

North Korea is sort of a theocracy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

("Necrocracy", as Hitchens aptly put it.)
Israel is generally not listed among the countries with theocratic governments, but it isn't ranked all that highly as secular either. Look up these distinctions when it comes to Israel, and you no doubt get something of a "mixed bag" at best...

"The current government in Israel, quite certainly the most theocratic in the country’s history, has launched a full-out onslaught on all things secular.

More than half of the seats in the ruling coalition belong to far-right parties that are driving the very unsecular official agenda. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has forged a compact with the most regressive political formations on the country’s landscape, promising to do their bidding as long as they enable him to stay in power and escape prosecution for his alleged corruption."

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...things-secular

I've really got to be signing off now. Cheers!
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,887 posts, read 7,342,365 times
Reputation: 7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Israel is generally not listed among the countries with theocratic governments, but it isn't ranked all that highly as secular either. Look up these distinctions when it comes to Israel, and you no doubt get something of a "mixed bag" at best...

"The current government in Israel, quite certainly the most theocratic in the country’s history, has launched a full-out onslaught on all things secular.

More than half of the seats in the ruling coalition belong to far-right parties that are driving the very unsecular official agenda. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has forged a compact with the most regressive political formations on the country’s landscape, promising to do their bidding as long as they enable him to stay in power and escape prosecution for his alleged corruption."

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...things-secular

I've really got to be signing off now. Cheers!
I was responding to the comment that said Israel is a theocracy. It is clearly not a theocracy. It may recently have taken a few steps in that direction, but as of now, the country is still well on the side of non-theocracy.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:29 AM
 
64,132 posts, read 40,451,192 times
Reputation: 7926
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and those who agree with you have been gaslighted by faulty extrapolations of science. Amazingly, the very entity (you) that is making these extrapolations and decisions has been dismissed from existence. It is a wonder to behold!
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
It's not that I don't exist, as obviously I am reading things and typing this. It's that these concepts, are concepts. Conceptual. What's actually happening is not an agent thinking things and doing things. The thoughts and the resultant actions are the things that are the actually existing things. The consciousness exists, but the feeling of the locus behind my face and skull, is just a feeling of this conscious (often less than conscious) experience, and not a thing that actually separately or physically exists. Processes are constantly going on inside my brain, and that's driving my fingers as I type this, and the decision to type this post.

The universe is having this little back and forth conversation with parts of itself. Nothing inside you or I is separate from the universe. Our experiences of our highly self-aware and intelligent homo sapiens consciousness, are actively constructing this sense of an entity of the self, as processes and change is constantly happening in every part of our brains. The self is not somehow some kind of outside agent to that.
You use the pronoun "I" as something "given in the inner consciousness" that does not require any identification of its locus which is all too typical, but erroneous. All those "processes" you refer to do not operate singly as individual synaptic firings. They form a composite entity at the level of quanta that does the "thinking, deciding, and motivating behaviors." That entity is you at the level of quanta and you dismiss its existence as an illusion. I find that amusing.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,887 posts, read 7,342,365 times
Reputation: 7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
They form a composite entity at the level of quanta that does the "thinking, deciding, and motivating behaviors."
What evidence/research are you basing this statement on? And what specifically do you mean by 'entity'?

Quote:
That entity is you at the level of quanta and you dismiss its existence as an illusion. I find that amusing.
You're jumping to this conclusion that you want to believe and declaring it as fact, without supporting demonstrative evidence. I find that less than amusing.
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