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Old 01-03-2024, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
What evidence/research are you basing this statement on? And what specifically do you mean by 'entity'?

You're jumping to this conclusion that you want to believe and declaring it as fact, without supporting demonstrative evidence. I find that less than amusing.
The entity I am talking to is not an illusion and not a bunch of disconnected synaptic processes dismissing his existence. You do not find self-dismissal amusing? But you find an extrapolated hypothesis of your true self based on extant science less than amusing? Strange!

 
Old 01-03-2024, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,258,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The entity I am talking to is not an illusion and not a bunch of disconnected synaptic processes dismissing his existence. You do not find self-dismissal amusing? But you find an extrapolated hypothesis of your true self based on extant science less than amusing? Strange!
Again, it's not that the illusion that is me doesn't exist- it's just an acknowledgment that it is, ultimately an illusion. At each point in time, all of the sub-atomic particles that make me up (and the rest of the universe), are in a certain location and state of motion, have certain properties, have certain bonds with other particles, and etc. Whether they are purely determined by the prior moment in a causal chain all the way back to the big bang (or further, or whatever), or whether there's some kind of non-causal quantum randomness going on, or some combination of the 2- I really don't know. But it also really doesn't matter, because neither of those allow for a self or for free will. Unless you make supernatural stuff up without evidence, like a soul.

And even if there is a 'soul', I don't even see how that really solves the problem. If I indeed possess a soul, did I get to choose my soul? If I didn't choose this soul, then that doesn't solve anything. If I did choose it, then did I get to choose whatever it was about me that caused me to choose that particular soul? And so on.

Ultimately, both the concept of free will and actually making choices, and the concept of the self, make no real sense. Because both are applied to a world with prior external determinations of each event that occurs, be they causal or otherwise.

I know you're from the "make stuff up" camp, but I prefer to stick to the facts of things, as observed and backed by evidence. Stop trying to make mystical mumbo jumbo fetch happen. It's not going to happen.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
23,141 posts, read 10,438,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Again, it's not that the illusion that is me doesn't exist- it's just an acknowledgment that it is, ultimately an illusion. At each point in time, all of the sub-atomic particles that make me up (and the rest of the universe), are in a certain location and state of motion, have certain properties, have certain bonds with other particles, and etc. Whether they are purely determined by the prior moment in a causal chain all the way back to the big bang (or further, or whatever), or whether there's some kind of non-causal quantum randomness going on, or some combination of the 2- I really don't know. But it also really doesn't matter, because neither of those allow for a self or for free will. Unless you make supernatural stuff up without evidence, like a soul.

And even if there is a 'soul', I don't even see how that really solves the problem. If I indeed possess a soul, did I get to choose my soul? If I didn't choose this soul, then that doesn't solve anything. If I did choose it, then did I get to choose whatever it was about me that caused me to choose that particular soul? And so on.

Ultimately, both the concept of free will and actually making choices, and the concept of the self, make no real sense. Because both are applied to a world with prior external determinations of each event that occurs, be they causal or otherwise.

I know you're from the "make stuff up" camp, but I prefer to stick to the facts of things, as observed and backed by evidence. Stop trying to make mystical mumbo jumbo fetch happen. It's not going to happen.
Liked your post man, I mean, what is an illusion?

Time?;Space?

Would it even exist without an observer? From where I stand, how could free will be real when the past and future siimply are?

The future simply is, the past simply is.

It's like a big cosmic freaking joke.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,258,301 times
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Also I'm forgetting another point- even 'randomness' is ultimately just another word for 'unpredictable' or 'unknown'. What we currently perceive as quantum effects of randomness may well also be deterministic, but we just don't yet understand the mechanics or that level of physics of how they work.

I'm definitely in the camp of the universe at this moment is the only possible one that could occur, from the big bang to this moment. Whatever all the causes and influences that led to this moment, inevitably led to this moment. For anything else to have happened along the way (including any individual conscious person's choices at any point), a different set of influences would have had to have been in play. If we played it out again, we'd get the same result. And if different quantum things happened (because something is happening that is truly random, if that is even a valid concept), then it wouldn't be the same universe, so wouldn't have the same outcomes.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 05:41 PM
 
63,792 posts, read 40,063,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Again, it's not that the illusion that is me doesn't exist- it's just an acknowledgment that it is, ultimately an illusion. At each point in time, all of the sub-atomic particles that make me up (and the rest of the universe), are in a certain location and state of motion, have certain properties, have certain bonds with other particles, and etc. Whether they are purely determined by the prior moment in a causal chain all the way back to the big bang (or further, or whatever), or whether there's some kind of non-causal quantum randomness going on, or some combination of the 2- I really don't know. But it also really doesn't matter, because neither of those allow for a self or for free will. Unless you make supernatural stuff up without evidence, like a soul.

And even if there is a 'soul', I don't even see how that really solves the problem. If I indeed possess a soul, did I get to choose my soul? If I didn't choose this soul, then that doesn't solve anything. If I did choose it, then did I get to choose whatever it was about me that caused me to choose that particular soul? And so on.

Ultimately, both the concept of free will and actually making choices, and the concept of the self, make no real sense. Because both are applied to a world with prior external determinations of each event that occurs, be they causal or otherwise.

I know you're from the "make stuff up" camp, but I prefer to stick to the facts of things, as observed and backed by evidence. Stop trying to make mystical mumbo jumbo fetch happen. It's not going to happen.
The one who is making stuff up is you beginning with your rejection of your existence and any responsibility for your decisions and actions. You can only avoid responsibility for your decisions by denying you exist to make them. You are making up this "automaton of particle interaction" and denying you exist. That is ludicrous. It is not necessary to prove some "soul" exists because YOU do exist and YOU do make decisions. There is not some automatic causal chain that results in the illusion of decision-making. There is actual decision making and that requires a decider, YOU!
 
Old 01-03-2024, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,258,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The one who is making stuff up is you beginning with your rejection of your existence and any responsibility for your decisions and actions. You can only avoid responsibility for your decisions by denying you exist to make them. You are making up this "automaton of particle interaction" and denying you exist. That is ludicrous. It is not necessary to prove some "soul" exists because YOU do exist and YOU do make decisions. There is not some automatic causal chain that results in the illusion of decision-making. There is actual decision making and that requires a decider, YOU!
No, I don't reject responsibility for my decisions and actions. Including the emotions like guilt and regret for the bad ones, or a feeling of pride or a sense of accomplishment in the good ones. Or the learning from my mistakes that leads to self-improvement, etc. These are good and useful things, that help us navigate our social existence on a shared planet. I'm just pointing out that those are concepts, just like *I* am a concept. Responsibility for myself in that sense that you are describing, is a social concept; it's not really a matter of the fact of the ultimate metaphysical determinism of all things. You're talking about totally different layers and getting them mixed up. Layers which are hundreds of layers of separation from each other.

I also believe in political freedom- because, again, that is a concept that has nothing to do with metaphysics. Political freedom does not require metaphysical free will, and it doesn't require the self to not be an illusion.

If I choose to cheat at a card game and win, the fact that I didn't choose my parents, or anything else about the universe that I had no say in, that all ultimately influenced my actions, that doesn't and shouldn't absolve me from the responsibility or a feeling of shame about that decidedly uncool action. Because again, you're talking about a social layer of things.

Of *that* version of free will (in the context of that layer, or strata), I suppose I am a compatibilist, in that sense.

Now, with all that being said, I think the understanding that there is ultimately no 'free will', should cause us to hesitate when going crazy with blame and fault and guilt. We should think more about understanding, and the fact that we don't have the authorship of things that we feel like we do or think we do. When a poor teenager on the south side of Chicago murders somebody over drugs or something, when considering sentencing and the response of the justice system and whatever, we should de-emphasize the notion that he could have chosen differently, and think about all the things that he had no choice into that went into determining his overall situation and resultant actions.

If I was that kid... I'd be that kid. In goes x, out comes x. Given the same circumstances, I wouldn't somehow have a magical ability to be anyone or anything else. Which doesn't mean we don't have legal consequences for socially unacceptable behavior (because again, these things are about social stability, not theoretical metaphysics), it just means that we shouldn't go so heavy on the "you could have done x or y".

Anyway...

All of that is beside the point and the discussion of this thread. We're not talking about normal humans in a normal society, with our normal limitations. We're talking about the theistic/Abrahamic traditional concept of God in this thread, and his oft-ascribed properties. God is not subject to these same limits of understanding. If that God is all-knowing, then God is all-knowing, and knows exactly the state of every particle at every instant of all of time, and therefore knows exactly why everything occurs as it does, or exactly why we are the exact people that we are at every point in time, and why we think the way we do or believe the way we do, etc. Including why we believe in God or not.

Therefore it doesn't make sense that *that* God would expect us to do x or y, or judge or disapprove of us for not being x or y. Whether that's believing in him, being good people, or whatever else OP is saying. If there is an omniscient God, he would only have one property towards us- complete and total understanding. Meaning that there would be no hell, and if there's a heaven, every living being goes there equally no matter what they do, or believe, or anything. Because God would understand all deterministic causes, even on a quantum level.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 09:23 PM
 
63,792 posts, read 40,063,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
No, I don't reject responsibility for my decisions and actions. Including the emotions like guilt and regret for the bad ones, or a feeling of pride or a sense of accomplishment in the good ones. Or the learning from my mistakes that leads to self-improvement, etc. These are good and useful things, that help us navigate our social existence on a shared planet. I'm just pointing out that those are concepts, just like *I* am a concept. Responsibility for myself in that sense that you are describing, is a social concept; it's not really a matter of the fact of the ultimate metaphysical determinism of all things. You're talking about totally different layers and getting them mixed up. Layers which are hundreds of layers of separation from each other.

I also believe in political freedom- because, again, that is a concept that has nothing to do with metaphysics. Political freedom does not require metaphysical free will, and it doesn't require the self to not be an illusion.

If I choose to cheat at a card game and win, the fact that I didn't choose my parents, or anything else about the universe that I had no say in, that all ultimately influenced my actions, that doesn't and shouldn't absolve me from the responsibility or a feeling of shame about that decidedly uncool action. Because again, you're talking about a social layer of things.

Of *that* version of free will (in the context of that layer, or strata), I suppose I am a compatibilist, in that sense.

Now, with all that being said, I think the understanding that there is ultimately no 'free will', should cause us to hesitate when going crazy with blame and fault and guilt. We should think more about understanding, and the fact that we don't have the authorship of things that we feel like we do or think we do. When a poor teenager on the south side of Chicago murders somebody over drugs or something, when considering sentencing and the response of the justice system and whatever, we should de-emphasize the notion that he could have chosen differently, and think about all the things that he had no choice into that went into determining his overall situation and resultant actions.

If I was that kid... I'd be that kid. In goes x, out comes x. Given the same circumstances, I wouldn't somehow have a magical ability to be anyone or anything else. Which doesn't mean we don't have legal consequences for socially unacceptable behavior (because again, these things are about social stability, not theoretical metaphysics), it just means that we shouldn't go so heavy on the "you could have done x or y".

Anyway...

All of that is beside the point and the discussion of this thread. We're not talking about normal humans in a normal society, with our normal limitations. We're talking about the theistic/Abrahamic traditional concept of God in this thread, and his oft-ascribed properties. God is not subject to these same limits of understanding. If that God is all-knowing, then God is all-knowing, and knows exactly the state of every particle at every instant of all of time, and therefore knows exactly why everything occurs as it does, or exactly why we are the exact people that we are at every point in time, and why we think the way we do or believe the way we do, etc. Including why we believe in God or not.

Therefore it doesn't make sense that *that* God would expect us to do x or y, or judge or disapprove of us for not being x or y. Whether that's believing in him, being good people, or whatever else OP is saying. If there is an omniscient God, he would only have one property towards us- complete and total understanding. Meaning that there would be no hell, and if there's a heaven, every living being goes there equally no matter what they do, or believe, or anything. Because God would understand all deterministic causes, even on a quantum level.
You seem very confused despite having immersed yourself in metaphysical deliberations. You DO know that an illusion does NOT exist, right? So everything you seem to think about this illusion (at whatever layer you are considering it) is nonsense, right? Or you have to eliminate the silly idea that you are an illusion (and admit that an illusion that can dismiss its existence as an illusion is amusing). Don't get me wrong. I do understand how your thinking has been so obviously derailed by faulty extrapolations from science.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 09:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You have a rather limited view about what it is to have free will. Don't you think?

To whatever extent any of us can agree we have free will, free will has allowed me to judge all there is to judge along these lines and choose to live the way I do accordingly. That same free will doesn't have me limited to a choice of "God's ways" and/or thus "bound to all the limitations" referenced. Choosing the truth of these matters as best I am able to able to establish the truth of these matters gives me the nature that overcomes all the rest.

Indeed it is free will that has so many different kinds of people deciding all variety of what to believe as a result of varied abilities to think critically. As well as all variety of emotions and environmental influences that cause so many different people to conclude differently about what is God, what God is up to and/or if a god even exists. It is free will that for the most part allows us to believe whatever we wish to believe. Regardless the facts or truths of these matters.

Life and death sums up all possibilities. This current life as we know it is a temporary one. God offers us eternal life. Now lets say for the moment we all agreed Yahweh not only exist, but He in truth offered us eternal life. If we receive it, we receive something that goes beyond this temporary world. However if we reject it, or if Yahweh doesn't exist, then we pass away all the same. Ultimately bound to the whims of nature and death. Without God, there's no choice concerning the end result of all humanity. That is truly a limitation. Yet with Yahweh, we exceed that limitation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
'You' are a construct formed within your consciousness, whether 'you' 'choose' to have your God beliefs or not.

It's not that we're 'slaves' to anything- it's that this whole experience of our 'self', is more viewing lounge than control room.

People exist, of course. They really are walking around. Our identities and experiences and the stories of our lives, etc., all do matter and do exist in the sense of what they are, and are real in that sense. But we are not some kind of 'agent' that is separate from the whims of our natural bodies in a natural universe. We are the construction of a conscious experience that is itself just a result of everything that emerges from our subconscious, and on down the line of the processes of biology and physics and every interaction.

When we experience something or think something, we tend to feel like we are an agent, separate from and having that experience, or an agent that's originating up the thoughts, that we think. But in actuality, we literally are the experience and we are the thoughts, which stream in from our animal brains.

At the end of the day, the only 'me' left is an entity that is a social concept. It's basically a convenient shorthand to describe this conceptual experiencing entity over time, or this collection of physical biology that is known as my name.

This may be a scientific assumption, but it requires absolute knowledge that all we are, at the base, are fluctuations of our makeup. That we are nothing but the sum of our parts that we can see. I would argue even though life is made up of the same particles found in the universe itself, we are fundamentally different from the universe itself. For instance the sun is all chemical reactions. It can't reason, or decide to end it's own processes. We can and I certainly don't advocate for anyone to end their processes! Life is not just another process like all other processes in the universe. We aren't just a way for the cosmos to know itself. We can even imagine other universes outside this one. With that capability of imagination and reason, does that not show our agency apart from the universe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
There is a reason why you are exactly the person that you are at this moment and believe exactly what you believe, yes. Same for me. That reason is just the sum total of every influence involved thereof. From genetics (how you're wired) to whatever environment factors, to whatever circumstances, to just chance and randomness, the limitations of what you know and understand or not, and just everything that goes into what we are and our states at the present moment, and therefore resultantly our thoughts and sense of experience and identity at this moment.

Which, to be clear, is not fatalism. I'm not arguing fatalism, or destiny. People can change and grow, and are constantly doing so. By all means, we should set goals and try to improve ourselves. Do all the things we have to do and want to do. But, we should also understand and keep in mind that every person at every moment is only exactly what they are capable of being, no more or no less, because the 'self' is ultimately an illusion/construction by our human experience, and not any actual physical thing.

Which, again, is why I hold that the judgmental Christian God stuff is all total nonsense. If there's a God with properties like the religion people often describe, then he knows exactly the state of literally everything at every moment, past and present, including everything streaming into our brains and therefore our minds. And so he would know exactly why everyone does everything that they do, every thought that they have, belief they have or not, etc. If OJ Simpson killed those 2 people in 1995, only God would fully know exactly why that event happened. Why he felt the impulses he did, and why he acted on them. Because, there is no OJ. "OJ" is a bunch of neurons and mammal and brain wiring that was born from his parents, and lived exactly the life he did in the environment he did, etc.

Or whatever else example you want to come up with. Including Hitler.

Any actually existing God would have total and complete 'forgiveness' for everything that's ever 'done' or not, by every conscious being that ever 'existed'. Of every thought ever had, every belief held or not, or anything. Because all of those things would be exactly the universe that he created, or so sayeth the theists.

Not only would God not particularly care if I or you believe in his existence, or whatever the things you're talking about, he would know exactly what everyone believes at all times and why.

I know you Christians like to put up your lazy magic concepts to get around all this pesky stuff, like "souls" "free will", etc., and whatever stretching of things to fit your narrative in an incoherent mess, when reconciled with the facts of the physical reality around you, especially as we discover more about things.

But, again, there would be no 'fooling' an actually omniscient being. There would be no approval or disapproval from such an entity. And a non-omniscient being would not really be a God.

Scientifically speaking, have their been experiments showing a person's exact thoughts? (Not just electrical activity in the brain, but from that activity, a scientist being able to tell a person's thought literally to the tee?) I believe we've seen the activity, but those electric signals are just that. There are no words attached to them, no pictures. A scientist may be able to predict a movement based on activity in the brain, or predict what a person might be thinking if studied long enough. However, there is no picture with an electrical signal, and no words. We aren't seeing everything and would be an assumption all of this stems from the brain, subconscious, and quantum fluctuations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac0x40 View Post
I just don't agree with this "slave to sin" language. Either you are a slave to sin/the devil or a slave to God. There is no being "free".

Well, if we're a slave to one, then we are free from the other. God being the Creator, He has the ability to create brand new things. I can dig being a slave to life (Yahweh). I can dig being a slave to abundance. (Yahweh) I can dig being a slave to love. (Yahweh) Ultimate freedom lies with Him. Choosing death ends all that potential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Ask me anything about my God (Yahweh) - If I don't know the answer, I'll tell you


Why do Christians never tell you that Yahweh originally was a minor pagan god of metallurgy in the Canaanite religion and that he had a wife named Asherah. This is her from one of numerous artifacts from the Bronze Age:





So if Yahweh originally was a Canaanite god then Jesus' father is a pagan god which makes Jesus a pagan god, right?

I trust what Jesus spoke of Himself and the Father. If the Canaanites worshipped Yahweh as a minor god, they believed a lie about Him. At one point according the history Genesis presents, the whole world knew of Yahweh. Then after the incident at Babel, the world forgot the one true creator God. Now after Jesus, He is commanding the entire world to return to Him again. Compared to all the other gods of Canaan and the cultures in the Middle East, Yahweh's message has come through quite a bit no? The Gospel of Jesus is still being preached, and the people of Israel are in their land as Yahweh promised. All of this is reason for me to believe the account of Yahweh as presented in Scripture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Was that intentionally ironic? To be free, is to serve no one. To have no master. What you're talking about sounds more like comfort.

I believe we were created to worship. It is in our nature, and it is in our nature to serve. Jesus said the greatest and first in the kingdom of heaven, will be a slave of all. So the choice we have, is who will we serve? And if we believe this life is all there is, then its true there is no free will in that the choice is being a slave to nature. Which in the end is death.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:07 PM
 
63,792 posts, read 40,063,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Life and death sums up all possibilities. This current life as we know it is a temporary one. God offers us eternal life. Now lets say for the moment we all agreed Yahweh not only exist, but He in truth offered us eternal life. If we receive it, we receive something that goes beyond this temporary world. However if we reject it, or if Yahweh doesn't exist, then we pass away all the same. Ultimately bound to the whims of nature and death. Without God, there's no choice concerning the end result of all humanity. That is truly a limitation. Yet with Yahweh, we exceed that limitation.

This may be a scientific assumption, but it requires absolute knowledge that all we are, at the base, are fluctuations of our makeup. That we are nothing but the sum of our parts that we can see. I would argue even though life is made up of the same particles found in the universe itself, we are fundamentally different from the universe itself. For instance the sun is all chemical reactions. It can't reason, or decide to end it's own processes. We can and I certainly don't advocate for anyone to end their processes! Life is not just another process like all other processes in the universe. We aren't just a way for the cosmos to know itself. We can even imagine other universes outside this one. With that capability of imagination and reason, does that not show our agency apart from the universe?
While we do not remotely agree about many things, you are not as confused by science as is primaltech.
Quote:
Scientifically speaking, have there been experiments showing a person's exact thoughts? (Not just electrical activity in the brain, but from that activity, a scientist being able to tell a person's thought literally to the tee?) I believe we've seen the activity, but those electric signals are just that. There are no words attached to them, no pictures. A scientist may be able to predict a movement based on activity in the brain, or predict what a person might be thinking if studied long enough. However, there is no picture with an electrical signal, and no words. We aren't seeing everything and would be an assumption all of this stems from the brain, subconscious, and quantum fluctuations.
No, there have not been any such experiments or measurements of consciousness content. They rely upon self-reporting. The content is at the level of quanta and we have only crude measurement capability at those energy levels. They exceed our macro-level senses and instruments. Besides, consciousness is similar to (if not the same as) what we call dark energy and dark matter because we cannot measure it directly but can only see its effects.
 
Old 01-03-2024, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,258,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Yet with Yahweh, we exceed that limitation.
Good thing for you that you weren't born in China or India then, eh?

Quote:
I would argue even though life is made up of the same particles found in the universe itself, we are fundamentally different from the universe itself. For instance the sun is all chemical reactions. It can't reason, or decide to end it's own processes.
I think what you're describing is called... biological life? Yes, we are alive, and the sun is not. In that sense, we're more than just physical objects. We have experience and consciousness.

Quote:
Life is not just another process like all other processes in the universe. We aren't just a way for the cosmos to know itself. We can even imagine other universes outside this one. With that capability of imagination and reason, does that not show our agency apart from the universe?
We're smart and self-aware, therefore = supernatural magic? No, I don't agree with that. Humans are special animals for sure, but still, are animals. We're made of matter and energy, and a part of the universe like everything else. Our consciousness is complex, but still a natural phenomenon.

Quote:
Scientifically speaking, have their been experiments showing a person's exact thoughts? (Not just electrical activity in the brain, but from that activity, a scientist being able to tell a person's thought literally to the tee?)
If the tech is not there already, we'll be getting there soon.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01304-9

Quote:
I believe we've seen the activity, but those electric signals are just that. There are no words attached to them, no pictures. A scientist may be able to predict a movement based on activity in the brain, or predict what a person might be thinking if studied long enough. However, there is no picture with an electrical signal, and no words. We aren't seeing everything and would be an assumption all of this stems from the brain, subconscious, and quantum fluctuations.
I'm not a neuroscientist, but the neuroscientists I've read all seem to agree that the data and research shows that our conscious thoughts start in the subconscious.

We're riding the horse. The horse goes where it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
I trust what Jesus spoke of Himself and the Father. If the Canaanites worshipped Yahweh as a minor god, they believed a lie about Him. At one point according the history Genesis presents, the whole world knew of Yahweh. Then after the incident at Babel, the world forgot the one true creator God. Now after Jesus, He is commanding the entire world to return to Him again. Compared to all the other gods of Canaan and the cultures in the Middle East, Yahweh's message has come through quite a bit no? The Gospel of Jesus is still being preached, and the people of Israel are in their land as Yahweh promised. All of this is reason for me to believe the account of Yahweh as presented in Scripture.
Again, lucky for you then that you were born into the culture you were born into, and not one of the billions of atheist Chinese families. Since your religion (one of thousands) happens to be the truth of the universe.

Quote:
I believe we were created to worship. It is in our nature, and it is in our nature to serve. Jesus said the greatest and first in the kingdom of heaven, will be a slave of all. So the choice we have, is who will we serve? And if we believe this life is all there is, then its true there is no free will in that the choice is being a slave to nature. Which in the end is death.
Ok.

I live my life as if it's all there is, which is probably the case. I quite appreciate the wonder of life, and the beauty of emotions, and everything that's great about being alive, which is a short and fleeting experience.

If I'm pleasantly surprised by some kind of nice afterlife type deal after I die, then cool. But I expect nothing, and so can't be disappointed. Nothingness sounds fine to me, and quite peaceful. That's where I came from, after all.

I don't live my life in fear, whatsoever. Your daddy punishment kink is not something that I share. If there's really a God, he would see how much cooler I am than the lame "Yahweh" mindless opiate types (you all would annoy him), and surely reward me and the other atheists, with a little bit nicer heaven. More busty virgins, stronger drinks, etc.
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