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Old 01-05-2024, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,299,945 times
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"God wants you to love him"- well, then perhaps he should have created a different universe in which I even believe in the existence of God, let alone love him.

Also, why would such a being (with the properties as described) have such an immature desire or need like that, or even care whether or not I believe he exists? If he exists, then he knows he exists, does he not? And he knows all the reasons and causes of why I am the atheistic type person that I am. (Including the total lack of evidence for God, who never shows up.)

 
Old 01-05-2024, 08:06 PM
 
7,448 posts, read 4,221,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
"God wants you to love him"- well, then perhaps he should have created a different universe in which I even believe in the existence of God, let alone love him.
If you ever raised teenagers you want them to mature. You want them to clean up after themselves, to put their dishes in the sink, and pick their clothes off the floor, check their pockets before dumping their beige uniform pants in the washing machine with pens waiting to explore during the cycle ( ask me how I know).

For the teenagers part, parents are always shouting at them and embarrassing them. Some days, teenagers really hate their parents and their parents aren't too crazy about them. You love them, but not like you did when they were cute babies or off to their first day of kindergarten. With teenagers, sometimes, it's a countdown to college that gets you through the day.

I don't think God loves us like a cute baby or a happy kindergartener. If God see us, it's as teenagers. I don't think God necessary finds us to be pleasant. Like teenagers, our relationship with God can be an adversarial. I think God is more focused on us maturing spiritually. I think that love is behind God - but not a unicorns pooping rainbows and stars in the sky fantasy love. It's more of clean up after yourself and stop your beige uniform pants from acquiring blue blotches.
 
Old 01-05-2024, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,073 posts, read 24,571,497 times
Reputation: 33100
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
If you ever raised teenagers you want them to mature. You want them to clean up after themselves, to put their dishes in the sink, and pick their clothes off the floor, check their pockets before dumping their beige uniform pants in the washing machine with pens waiting to explore during the cycle ( ask me how I know).

For the teenagers part, parents are always shouting at them and embarrassing them. Some days, teenagers really hate their parents and their parents aren't too crazy about them. You love them, but not like you did when they were cute babies or off to their first day of kindergarten. With teenagers, sometimes, it's a countdown to college that gets you through the day.

I don't think God loves us like a cute baby or a happy kindergartener. If God see us, it's as teenagers. I don't think God necessary finds us to be pleasant. Like teenagers, our relationship with God can be an adversarial. I think God is more focused on us maturing spiritually. I think that love is behind God - but not a unicorns pooping rainbows and stars in the sky fantasy love. It's more of clean up after yourself and stop your beige uniform pants from acquiring blue blotches.
Funny, I don't remember hearing any such nonsense in Sunday school, in the Methodist Church, or in the Catholic Church.
 
Old 01-05-2024, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,299,945 times
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I think that God is a thing that people create for their own comfort.

Hundreds of billions of galaxies... each with hundreds of billions of stars each, out there. There's no way that we're the center of all that, and it was all created for our benefit. And that someone created all that, and... regards us as teenagers.

If people need that faith, then fine. You do you. But I personally think we're ultimately better off as a society without the irrationality of religion as a source of answers on navigating a reality in which all of that feel good stuff is all make believe.

It would be one thing if we all understood the fact that man didn't actually come from "Adam and Eve", and that the planet Earth wasn't created in a week (or 'created' at all), and there was no verifiably impossible global flood by the creator of the universe to punish our species' bad behavior. But people actually literally believe this stuff. I think that hurts our progress.
 
Old 01-05-2024, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,073 posts, read 24,571,497 times
Reputation: 33100
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
I think that God is a thing that people create for their own comfort.

Hundreds of billions of galaxies... each with hundreds of billions of stars each, out there. There's no way that we're the center of all that, and it was all created for our benefit. And that someone created all that, and... regards us as teenagers.

If people need that faith, then fine. You do you. But I personally think we're ultimately better off as a society without the irrationality of religion as a source of answers on navigating a reality in which all of that feel good stuff is all make believe.

It would be one thing if we all understood the fact that man didn't actually come from "Adam and Eve", and that the planet Earth wasn't created in a week (or 'created' at all), and there was no verifiably impossible global flood by the creator of the universe to punish our species' bad behavior. But people actually literally believe this stuff. I think that hurts our progress.
I agree with your post.

But I want to comment particularly about what I bolded: It's interesting how religionists in one culture will look at religions from another culture with various emotions, including disdain, hate, or laughter. And people in those other cultures look right back at those seeing disdain toward their religion and feel the same disdain for the religion of the other culture.

One day, in Bangkok, I was invited by several monks to visit their very poor temple on the Thonburi side of the river. I spent a whole afternoon there talking with these monks about various topics, including mostly Buddhism. But at one point one of the monks asked me to tell them the abbreviated story of Jesus. So I started with the story of Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem, going through the Sermon On The Mount, on to Jesus' trail, his crucifixion, and rising from the dead. I didn't embellish it negatively or positively, but ultimately their reaction was giggling. Now some one of our posters here will probably speak up and say how rude they were to giggle at christian belief, but they probably wouldn't object if someone told those monks that if they don't accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they will go to hell.
 
Old 01-05-2024, 09:57 PM
 
63,999 posts, read 40,299,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
It's not really about determinism or indeterminism. It's about cause. Every event (I'm talking at the tiniest particle levels of physics) either has a cause, or it's some kind of uncaused quantum spontaneous dice roll random thing (which might have causes that we don't understand yet). But either way, to me that logic doesn't leave room for an actual freedom of action for a human being, or a bear, or anything, regardless of consciousness or the illusion of choosing. Neither of those, (events caused by prior events, or uncaused events) are an example of me somehow actually choosing the next particle event, regardless of the laws of physics. Unless you invoke some kind of supernatural explanation or something made up that there's no direct evidence for. (If you want to speculate around that, fine, but it annoys me when certain posters around here act like any of that is fact.)

The way that that relates to this thread and the reason I brought it up, is because God/Yahweh is said to be omniscient, right, but then also judges people, and disapproves/approves of whatever. That doesn't make sense to me. Everything that everyone does/thinks/believes, etc., is a result of causes, influences, limitations. Both at a macro level and a micro-particle level. God would know and understand all of those factors in full detail, including the reason why exactly someone like Hitler (over-used example), did every little thing that he did. So how could such a being pass judgment, or deny Hitler or any bad people (or militant atheists, etc.), the same eternal paradise awarded to the very 'best' people?

Again, whether deterministic or indeterministic, the way everything plays out over time is the way it plays out. If everything's deterministic then there was no chance for it to be any other way. If everything's indeterministic then the only way it could have been any other way is for different random quantum events to have happened instead, but those aren't the events that happened.
You are the poster boy for "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," IMO. Reality is not a deterministic or "indeterministic" automaton that just happens in accordance with physical laws. Life is motivated action with varying degrees of conscious direction and choice. Humans have the highest degree of choice of all life on the earth. Your dead, lifeless, "automated" (whether deterministic or random) reality is born of insufficient knowledge of the composition and functioning of reality. The forum's premier "seeker of facts" or the "truth of the matter" even recognizes the issues with your views.
 
Old 01-06-2024, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,832 posts, read 5,040,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are the poster boy for "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," IMO. Reality is not a deterministic or "indeterministic" automaton that just happens in accordance with physical laws. Life is motivated action with varying degrees of conscious direction and choice. Humans have the highest degree of choice of all life on the earth. Your dead, lifeless, "automated" (whether deterministic or random) reality is born of insufficient knowledge of the composition and functioning of reality. The forum's premier "seeker of facts" or the "truth of the matter" even recognizes the issues with your views.
Ironically ignorant of the research that suggests many of our alleged choices are not choices. A little knowledge is definitely a dangerous thing.
 
Old 01-06-2024, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,299,945 times
Reputation: 7795
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are the poster boy for "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," IMO. Reality is not a deterministic or "indeterministic" automaton that just happens in accordance with physical laws. Life is motivated action with varying degrees of conscious direction and choice. Humans have the highest degree of choice of all life on the earth. Your dead, lifeless, "automated" (whether deterministic or random) reality is born of insufficient knowledge of the composition and functioning of reality. The forum's premier "seeker of facts" or the "truth of the matter" even recognizes the issues with your views.
On the contrary, it's your arrogant world of irrational make believe, that is cheap, dull, lifeless, and uninspiring. Hence, why I have a higher reputation around here, even though I have 9,000 posts and you have 62,000 (lol), despite lacking your great "knowledge of the composition and functioning of reality". That, for some reason you refuse to explain or lay out, instead preferring cheap shots and one liners and insults. Lame as hell.

Whether the universe is deterministic or not (and, again, I'm willing to accept the possibility of either, or both), it's a place of total awe inspiring wonder, beyond our wildest dreams. Without needing to insert any supernatural magic into it, at all. In fact, it's more inspiring and wondrous, without making stuff up.

What's beautiful to me is accepting reality as it is presented from the real evidence and unbiased observation, not substituting our pre-conceived theology for it, or any fabricated, baseless "what you want to believe" conclusions about mystical pantheism and new age agape-souls and supernatural hogwash.

Life is a mysterious phenomenon, as is consciousness and the experience we have of it. And that's okay. And neither its complexity or its mystery are evidence that life/consciousness are not a part of the physical universe like everything else. This is an unwarranted, unscientific assumption that you are choosing to make.
 
Old 01-06-2024, 09:26 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,795,775 times
Reputation: 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
It's not really about determinism or indeterminism. It's about cause. Every event (I'm talking at the tiniest particle levels of physics) either has a cause, or it's some kind of uncaused quantum spontaneous dice roll random thing (which might have causes that we don't understand yet). But either way, to me that logic doesn't leave room for an actual freedom of action for a human being, or a bear, or anything, regardless of consciousness or the illusion of choosing. Neither of those, (events caused by prior events, or uncaused events) are an example of me somehow actually choosing the next particle event, regardless of the laws of physics. Unless you invoke some kind of supernatural explanation or something made up that there's no direct evidence for. (If you want to speculate around that, fine, but it annoys me when certain posters around here act like any of that is fact.)

The way that that relates to this thread and the reason I brought it up, is because God/Yahweh is said to be omniscient, right, but then also judges people, and disapproves/approves of whatever. That doesn't make sense to me. Everything that everyone does/thinks/believes, etc., is a result of causes, influences, limitations. Both at a macro level and a micro-particle level. God would know and understand all of those factors in full detail, including the reason why exactly someone like Hitler (over-used example), did every little thing that he did. So how could such a being pass judgment, or deny Hitler or any bad people (or militant atheists, etc.), the same eternal paradise awarded to the very 'best' people?

Again, whether deterministic or indeterministic, the way everything plays out over time is the way it plays out. If everything's deterministic then there was no chance for it to be any other way. If everything's indeterministic then the only way it could have been any other way is for different random quantum events to have happened instead, but those aren't the events that happened.
Again I am not one to argue that every event has a cause, and again I ask, where does this leave us? Of what consequence is this relationship between cause and effect when so much of what we might describe as "free will" or whatever happens is unpredictable? Indeed what can we determine about the roll of the dice with this knowledge for example? Every roll of two dice will reveal a number of pips between 2 and 12. Sure. Of course, and whatever number is revealed is due to the "tiniest particle levels of physics," but before the dice are thrown is the number about to be revealed already established by these particles?

I call these "murky waters," because I'm the first to agree all we think and do is a result of what goes on between the ears, but aside from the fact this knowledge doesn't make anyone's actions absolutely predictable, even for that person, there are so many factors or influences outside of between the ears that converge in random fashion, I just think there is more to "free will" than can or should be explained only by way of the tiniest particles and how they interact.

Again, either way, how does this knowledge or opinion you share matter to us generally speaking? If someone is "looking for love," does this knowledge help them know where to look? Or when? Of course not. Of course you will agree. If they meet the person of their dreams on a plane five years later, would you say there was some sort of parade of tiny particle interaction that put them on a course to meet one another five years prior? Or if the plane goes down in a fiery crash due to pilot error before they get the chance to meet, then that event was instead set in motion five years prior? None of which may or may not occur as a result of their "free will" and/or the pilot's?

Are you exercising free will when you decide to respond to this email? If you decide to respond or not? Or have you no choice somehow? Aside from anything you decide either way, anything could happen beyond your control that will ultimately determine whether you respond to this comment or not. At a minimum, as a result of free will or not, I continue to wonder whether pondering these kinds of questions is worth the time it takes to do so.
 
Old 01-06-2024, 09:36 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,795,775 times
Reputation: 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are the poster boy for "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," IMO. Reality is not a deterministic or "indeterministic" automaton that just happens in accordance with physical laws. Life is motivated action with varying degrees of conscious direction and choice. Humans have the highest degree of choice of all life on the earth. Your dead, lifeless, "automated" (whether deterministic or random) reality is born of insufficient knowledge of the composition and functioning of reality. The forum's premier "seeker of facts" or the "truth of the matter" even recognizes the issues with your views.
On the other hand...

I think the point the "poster boy" is trying to make is that conscious direction and choice ultimately boils down to how we "are wired" and how our wiring is working. In the same way it can be said the light will turn on as a result of hitting the switch, or maybe not, what happens isn't anything other than a function of how electricity travels and interacts with the environment. We may not understand how everything in our brains or consciousness works, but it's difficult to think it works in ways that can prove a "free will" exists.

To my titles of "premier seeker of facts," and "the truth of the matter," please add "seer of gray areas" (rather than just black or white).
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