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Old 12-17-2023, 05:12 PM
 
Location: The Piedmont of North Carolina
5,698 posts, read 2,630,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
John Lennon felt the same way you did. So did the Marxists. And we got Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung.

Look at the history of what happened in the monotheistic era that preceded Christianity if you think people would be better and nicer without religion.
Yep! There's a reason Christianity became as predominant as it did.
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Old 12-17-2023, 05:45 PM
 
Location: The Piedmont of North Carolina
5,698 posts, read 2,630,002 times
Reputation: 7234
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Traditional Christian theodicy says that god is all knowing, all powerful and all good.

All three of these things cannot be true if god allows evil to exist.

If god is unaware of evil, he isn't all knowing.
If he's aware and cares but cannot act, then he isn't all powerful.
If he's aware and does not act, he isn't all good.

That's the Cliff's Notes version anyway.

Perhaps you are willing to throw one of these attributes under the bus?? If not then your god is logically contradictory.
God knows evil exists. That's why he blessed us with His knowledge and ultimately why he sent his only son, Jesus, to help us avoid evil.

But, God didn't create evil. Humans did. And God doesn't practice evil. Humans do. So, why should God be expected to clean up other people's messes?

And besides, after He flooded the Earth, He promised to Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.. That's why he had to send his son, Jesus.
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Old 12-17-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,169 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32555
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Traditional Christian theodicy says that god is all knowing, all powerful and all good.

All three of these things cannot be true if god allows evil to exist.

If god is unaware of evil, he isn't all knowing.
If he's aware and cares but cannot act, then he isn't all powerful.
If he's aware and does not act, he isn't all good.

That's the Cliff's Notes version anyway.

Perhaps you are willing to throw one of these attributes under the bus?? If not then your god is logically contradictory.
I agree with you COMPLETELY. Christians can't face the truths you mention.
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Old 12-17-2023, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,169 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32555
Quote:
Originally Posted by FordBronco1967 View Post
...

But, God didn't create evil. Humans did. And God doesn't practice evil. Humans do. So, why should God be expected to clean up other people's messes?

And besides, after He flooded the Earth, He promised to Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done..
1. Why should god clean up messes by people? Because he is SUPPOSEDLY all-powerful and all GOOD, as well as he SUPPOSEDLY loves the children HE created.

2. So when flooded the earth...he screwed up. First by a substandard earth that he created, and then by having a tantrum.
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:10 PM
 
Location: The Piedmont of North Carolina
5,698 posts, read 2,630,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Why should god clean up messes by people? Because he is SUPPOSEDLY all-powerful and all GOOD, as well as he SUPPOSEDLY loves the children HE created.

2. So when flooded the earth...he screwed up. First by a substandard earth that he created, and then by having a tantrum.
1. Is it loving to step into your child's life when there's a problem and solve it for them? I don't think it is, as that would be enabling. Children must learn from their actions. The most loving thing to do is provide guidance, which is what God did with blessing us with the Old Testament, and eventually his son, Jesus. God cannot make us do anything, just as I cannot make you do anything. But He can guide, just as I can state my beliefs and opinions.

2. "Screwed up" is an interesting way of putting it. But the sentence, Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done., does suggest the possibility of feelings of remorse, though that is not certain. And God didn't create a "substandard" world. He created a world. It was humans that made is substandard through their evil. And that's why we were given the necessary guidance to end that evil, and therefore the substandard we've created.
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,169 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32555
Quote:
Originally Posted by FordBronco1967 View Post
1. Is it loving to step into your child's life when there's a problem and solve it for them? I don't think it is, as that would be enabling. Children must learn from their actions. The most loving thing to do is provide guidance, which is what God did with blessing us with the Old Testament, and eventually his son, Jesus. God cannot make us do anything, just as I cannot make you do anything. But He can guide, just as I can state my beliefs and opinions.

2. "Screwed up" is an interesting way of putting it. But the sentence, Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done., does suggest the possibility of feelings of remorse, though that is not certain. And God didn't create a "substandard" world. He created a world. It was humans that made is substandard through their evil. And that's why we were given the necessary guidance to end that evil, and therefore the substandard we've created.
1. Often it is.

2. I see no 'gift' in the hate and violence we see in the OT.

3. If he's all powerful, he certainly could make us do anything.

4. When you go to hell, look at it as god's loving guidance.

5. So god cannot look into the future. So he's not all powerful. Okay.
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:33 PM
 
Location: The Piedmont of North Carolina
5,698 posts, read 2,630,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Often it is.

2. I see no 'gift' in the hate and violence we see in the OT.

3. If he's all powerful, he certainly could make us do anything.

4. When you go to hell, look at it as god's loving guidance.

5. So god cannot look into the future. So he's not all powerful. Okay.
1. Enabling is not logical or healthy. And it's not compassionate.

2. There's more to the Old Testament than hate and violence. Of course, what we humans view as violence can sometimes be done out of love. After all, killing another human being in self-defense is violent, but if it's to protect someone we love, then we did so out of love, not because we wanted to commit violence.

3. No, not when we have free will.

4. I personally believe that Hell is reserved for the most wicked (i.e. murderers, rapists, etc.) But, going to Hell is not his guidance. It's the consequences of not following his guidance. I very well could be wrong, in that more souls go to Hell than I currently think, so that's why I do what I can to help ensure that I am not sentenced to an eternity in Hell. But, whether I am or not isn't really up to me.

5. God can "look" into the future. He knows all, despite our free will, because we are often creatures of habit. We're predictable.
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:40 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Traditional Christian theodicy says that god is all knowing, all powerful and all good.

All three of these things cannot be true if god allows evil to exist.

If god is unaware of evil, he isn't all knowing.
If he's aware and cares but cannot act, then he isn't all powerful.
If he's aware and does not act, he isn't all good.

That's the Cliff's Notes version anyway.

Perhaps you are willing to throw one of these attributes under the bus?? If not then your god is logically contradictory.
God is aware of evil. It happens because man has free will.

God has acted against evil and will again.

See point #2.
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:43 PM
 
Location: USA
18,423 posts, read 9,043,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
So, you don’t know but God is not a possibility?
Anything is possible. It is possible that we are all living in The Matrix. It is possible that gravity will stop working in five minutes. It is possible that the Greek god Zeus will show up in my living room tomorrow. It is possible that you will turn into a Jell-o Monster next Wednesday. Why shouldn’t you believe in any of that?
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Old 12-17-2023, 06:49 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Anything is possible. It is possible that we are all living in The Matrix. It is possible that gravity will stop working in five minutes. It is possible that the Greek god Zeus will show up in my living room tomorrow. It is possible that you will turn into a Jell-o Monster next Wednesday. Why shouldn’t you believe in any of that?
Likeliness
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