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Old 12-30-2023, 11:08 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 25 days ago)
 
18,726 posts, read 6,811,539 times
Reputation: 3519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by seethelight View Post
So, God apparently didn't seem to hear the prayers of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, so why does anyone think that God will really grant you the new job you were hoping to get? REALLY? Shouldn't people just say that they were hoping to get the new job rather than try and use God to grant their requests?
Define "work", please.

Because God has never promised that bad things wouldn't happen, nor has he promised that he'd give us everything our little hearts desire, such as a new job, or a new car.

So...why would one think that the standard for prayers "working" is that we can treat him like a genie in a bottle?
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Old 12-30-2023, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,719 posts, read 13,265,101 times
Reputation: 9711
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Define "work", please.

Because God has never promised that bad things wouldn't happen, nor has he promised that he'd give us everything our little hearts desire, such as a new job, or a new car.

So...why would one think that the standard for prayers "working" is that we can treat him like a genie in a bottle?
In many ways the scriptures invite us to treat him like a genie, provided we are sufficiently pious at any rate. "Ask and it shall be given, shaken, pressed down in good measure"; "see if god will not open the storehouse of heaven for you", "god blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked", "with long life I shall satisfy [the righteous], and show them my salvation"; "you only need faith as a mustard seed".

So it is perfectly reasonable to make requests of god on behalf of people who are, e.g., sick or dying, including oneself, and probably to see it as an attack of the devil and to engage in some sort of spiritual wrestling match over it.

Asking for car keys or parking spaces to be found, or for a raise at work, that's arguably questionable, but beseeching for the very life of a loved one for instance, that's a different matter. You can argue that my expectations were poorly set and you'd probably be right, but still ... it happens, all the time.
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Old 12-30-2023, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,135 posts, read 23,792,348 times
Reputation: 32533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Well, there it is, right from the horse’s mouth: if only the Jews had been righteous Christians, the Holocaust might not have happened.
And the implication of that idea...to me...is that how can people reconcile that 'ignoring of humanity' with their claim that god creates all children. If I was a christian and thought that, I'd be ashamed to be associated with christianity.
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Old 12-30-2023, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,135 posts, read 23,792,348 times
Reputation: 32533
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnchantedMuggle View Post
If a little child with a sweet, pure heart were to pray and pray that his grandmother would survive accident-created brain damage, but she died, would you believe prayer made a difference? It was my son and to this day he misses his grandmother terribly.

This is the problem with saying prayers are answered if they are pure, righteous, if there are enough of them, etc. Because you're basically telling people that their child died of cancer or they got into a crippling accident they could never recover from, etc., etc. because they didn't pray the right way.

I am very very happy for your daughter. I am relieved for you and truly happy for you. BUT you are basically saying your grandmother prayed the right way and that's why your daughter is fine. And in doing so you're telling some poor kid somewhere who is sexually abused or who has CP or a starving child in a third-world country that theirs aren't answered because they didn't do a prayer chain.
Excellent post.

It's the old 'some of us are special' perspective that is so disgusting.
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Old 12-30-2023, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,135 posts, read 23,792,348 times
Reputation: 32533
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Define "work", please.

Because God has never promised that bad things wouldn't happen, nor has he promised that he'd give us everything our little hearts desire, such as a new job, or a new car.

So...why would one think that the standard for prayers "working" is that we can treat him like a genie in a bottle?
6 million people. of course you probably don't care...they were just Jews.
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Old 12-30-2023, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,963 posts, read 83,789,860 times
Reputation: 114160
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnchantedMuggle View Post
If a little child with a sweet, pure heart were to pray and pray that his grandmother would survive accident-created brain damage, but she died, would you believe prayer made a difference? It was my son and to this day he misses his grandmother terribly.

This is the problem with saying prayers are answered if they are pure, righteous, if there are enough of them, etc. Because you're basically telling people that their child died of cancer or they got into a crippling accident they could never recover from, etc., etc. because they didn't pray the right way.

I am very very happy for your daughter. I am relieved for you and truly happy for you. BUT you are basically saying your grandmother prayed the right way and that's why your daughter is fine. And in doing so you're telling some poor kid somewhere who is sexually abused or who has CP or a starving child in a third-world country that theirs aren't answered because they didn't do a prayer chain.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. That was exactly what caused me so much damage at the age of six. I prayed for my cousin to get well, every single night. But I was a child for Pete's sake, and sometimes I wasn't focusing while I said my prayers, or was goofing off with my sister, and because of that, God killed Kathy, who was my same age. Actually, she had leukemia, but I didn't understand that. I just knew that prayers were supposed to make her better, and I obviously I did something wrong, and God was angry and now might try to kill me, too.

And that deep fear of God and of death was my constant companion until I was about 40 years old. Stop lying to children and telling them God will answer their prayers.
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Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 12-30-2023 at 04:54 PM..
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Old 12-30-2023, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,135 posts, read 23,792,348 times
Reputation: 32533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. That was exactly what caused me so much damage at the age of six. I prayed for my cousin to get well, every single night. But I was a child for Pete's sake, and sometimes I wasn't focusing while I said my prayers, or was goofing off with my sister, and because of that, God killed Kathy, who was my same age. Actually, she had leukemia, but I didn't understand that. I just knew that prayers were supposed to.make her better, and I obviously I did something wrong, and God was angry and now might try to kill me, too.

And that deep fear of God and of death was my constant companion until I was about 40 years old. Stop lying to children and telling them God will answer their prayers.
Ding, ding, ding...we have yet another winner!

And then we have the great 'car keys claim'. I actually find it hilarious.
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Old 12-30-2023, 12:06 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 25 days ago)
 
18,726 posts, read 6,811,539 times
Reputation: 3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
In many ways the scriptures invite us to treat him like a genie, provided we are sufficiently pious at any rate. "Ask and it shall be given, shaken, pressed down in good measure"; "see if god will not open the storehouse of heaven for you", "god blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked", "with long life I shall satisfy [the righteous], and show them my salvation"; "you only need faith as a mustard seed".

So it is perfectly reasonable to make requests of god on behalf of people who are, e.g., sick or dying, including oneself, and probably to see it as an attack of the devil and to engage in some sort of spiritual wrestling match over it.

Asking for car keys or parking spaces to be found, or for a raise at work, that's arguably questionable, but beseeching for the very life of a loved one for instance, that's a different matter. You can argue that my expectations were poorly set and you'd probably be right, but still ... it happens, all the time.
Yes, he does want us to seek him, and he does want us to ask him. And he is good, and he does love his children. But no, he never promised lack of hardship.
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Old 12-30-2023, 12:09 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 25 days ago)
 
18,726 posts, read 6,811,539 times
Reputation: 3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. That was exactly what caused me so much damage at the age of six. I prayed for my cousin to get well, every single night. But I was a child for Pete's sake, and sometimes I wasn't focusing while I said my prayers, or was goofing off with my sister, and because of that, God killed Kathy, who was my same age. Actually, she had leukemia, but I didn't understand that. I just knew that prayers were supposed to.make her better, and I obviously I did something wrong, and God was angry and now might try to kill me, too.

And that deep fear of God and of death was my constant companion until I was about 40 years old. Stop lying to children and telling them God will answer their prayers.
Better yet, tell the truth about God. He does with his creation what he wants. That means sometimes those we consider "good" will have bad things happen. Why? Because he will do what he wants with his creation.

That doesn't mean that we earn blessings, or that we cause bad things to happen. It is because of the issue of sin being in the world, period.

The good news is that he has promised that he would deal with sin once and for all. He will return and set up his kingdom, and all that believe in him will praise his name for eternity in his presence. There will be no sickness, death, or pain.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,214 posts, read 60,926,856 times
Reputation: 30081
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
By coincidence, yesterday when I was driving in my general neighborhood I passed a christian church and they had a sign out front that said: "God loves all people equally". Too bad you don't feel the same way.
He did not say anything to contradict your church sign.
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