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Old 02-22-2024, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,759 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32903

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if a person is determined to see and find the worst in people, then that is what they see and find.
so too if someone is determined to see and find the best in people, then that is what they see and find.

whether they are looking at people individually or collectively.
which has nothing significant to do with my post. I have known a number of churches that do wonderful things. But the number parishioners who are directly involved in those wonderful things is a tiny percentage of the people attending those churches.
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Old 02-22-2024, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,509 posts, read 84,688,123 times
Reputation: 114946
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Probably more than you. Our Catholic school sponsored a giving tree at Christmas and every single student participated. In some cases, this was the only present some kids got at Christmas. We also had a yearly glove, scarf and hat drive for these kids. Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts had food drives and made Veteran's Day cards for Veterans.

Before the 1980's, many stay-at-home moms were involved with the PTA, charities, clubs, CDD, etc. Once women worked full time while raising a family, the whole dynamic of society changed. There are only so many hours in a day. After the work day is over, parents have to cook dinner, clean, check homework, etc., there isn't time for PTA and other community/church events.

What I've found is retired folk volunteer more than working parents. My social circle is involved with food pantries, meals on wheels, animal rescues, community gardens, etc. It's easier when you time on your hands. We aren't religion basis, but do activities based on our individual specific area of interest.

The problem is really the breakdown of the family which makes the needs of charity so much greater. You really see this with Meals on Wheels. And, with the inflation since 1970's, people are getting poorer and have less to give.
It also depends on the outlook of the church. When I was growing up, most of the fundraising and giving was geared toward supporting the missionaries who were translating the Bible into languages of the indigenous people they were converting in South America and Africa.

They'd come to our church and tell their stories of the awful things they had to eat, and I remember thinking I never ever would want to be a missionary, lol.

Then at Christmas, we would each have to bring a can of fruit or something in "for the poor in Paterson", a blighted city about fifteen miles away. In general, though, the idea was that "the poor are always with you", which was the verse misused to imply that if people here in the USA, especially around the corner, didn't have enough to eat, it was pretty much their own damn fault. More important to create a Bible for the lost souls than to feed our neighbors. I don't know if the Reformed Church still operates that way or not, but it had nothing to do with stay-at-home moms. Our mothers WERE SAHMS, but helping your neighbors was not seen as a priority.

In fact, one of my sisters married a man who kept losing his job and pretending he was going to work every day, but he was really just going fishing. She had a baby and had no money to buy food. She belonged to the church, and when she said something to my mother rather bitterly about the church helping foreigners but not their own, my mother said, "But you have a husband who is supposed to provide for you." He didn't, of course. But that was the mindset of the Reformed Church at that time. You are responsible for yourself but we have to convert the tribes in the jungle.

One day another woman from the church who didn't have much money stopped by her house and dropped off a bag of groceries because she knew what the situation was. One of the poorest helping another while the wealthier members turned their backs. (Eventually my brother-in-law went fishing for the weekend with his father when my niece was two years old. She's now 45. He still hasn't come back, lol.)

My sister went on public assistance for a time until she got some work and got back on her own feet. She never returned to a church, though. Her current partner, with whom she's been for 35 years but never married is active in a local church, but she won't have anything to do with it.

Eventually, in our little town, there was a request to help a family who had a daughter with anorexia nervosa, the first time anyone had ever heard of it. The girl needed mental health care and treatment, which back in the 70s was not covered by insurance and of course had a stigma attached, and so the town started this thing called The Love Fund to help this family.

The Love Fund still exists in that town to this day to help local families who are in crisis because of an illness of a child or a parent.

After ditching the church when I hit 18, I found the Episcopal Church in my 30s, and it was so different. The little parish was part of a group of churches, synagogues, and even a Sikh temple in the county that took turns cooking for and feeding about 125 people every day. We could only do it three or four times a year, while some of the big churches did it every six weeks. I loved doing that. This wasn't about some faraway land, it was about people a few towns from where we lived who needed our direct help.

But I did know atheist coworkers who also fed the homeless, one of them even through a church nearby his house, even though he did not believe any of it. It's the people, not their religion that do good, although often it's facilitated by a church or other organization.
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Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 02-22-2024 at 11:46 AM..
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Old 02-22-2024, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,438 posts, read 12,775,263 times
Reputation: 2497
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Because you project that your church does all that, when in reality it's probably a very small number of church members involved. I see it as sort of false advertising.
You’re just frustrated because you have no valid complaint.
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Old 02-22-2024, 09:07 PM
 
7,319 posts, read 4,111,948 times
Reputation: 16775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
It also depends on the outlook of the church. When I was growing up, most of the fundraising and giving was geared toward supporting the missionaries who were translating the Bible into languages of the indigenous people they were converting in South America and Africa.

They'd come to our church and tell their stories of the awful things they had to eat, and I remember thinking I never ever would want to be a missionary, lol.

Then at Christmas, we would each have to bring a can of fruit or something in "for the poor in Paterson", a blighted city about fifteen miles away. In general, though, the idea was that "the poor are always with you", which was the verse misused to imply that if people here in the USA, especially around the corner, didn't have enough to eat, it was pretty much their own damn fault. More important to create a Bible for the lost souls than to feed our neighbors. I don't know if the Reformed Church still operates that way or not, but it had nothing to do with stay-at-home moms. Our mothers WERE SAHMS, but helping your neighbors was not seen as a priority.

In fact, one of my sisters married a man who kept losing his job and pretending he was going to work every day, but he was really just going fishing. She had a baby and had no money to buy food. She belonged to the church, and when she said something to my mother rather bitterly about the church helping foreigners but not their own, my mother said, "But you have a husband who is supposed to provide for you." He didn't, of course. But that was the mindset of the Reformed Church at that time. You are responsible for yourself but we have to convert the tribes in the jungle.

One day another woman from the church who didn't have much money stopped by her house and dropped off a bag of groceries because she knew what the situation was. One of the poorest helping another while the wealthier members turned their backs. (Eventually my brother-in-law went fishing for the weekend with his father when my niece was two years old. She's now 45. He still hasn't come back, lol.)

My sister went on public assistance for a time until she got some work and got back on her own feet. She never returned to a church, though. Her current partner, with whom she's been for 35 years but never married is active in a local church, but she won't have anything to do with it.

Eventually, in our little town, there was a request to help a family who had a daughter with anorexia nervosa, the first time anyone had ever heard of it. The girl needed mental health care and treatment, which back in the 70s was not covered by insurance and of course had a stigma attached, and so the town started this thing called The Love Fund to help this family.

The Love Fund still exists in that town to this day to help local families who are in crisis because of an illness of a child or a parent.

After ditching the church when I hit 18, I found the Episcopal Church in my 30s, and it was so different. The little parish was part of a group of churches, synagogues, and even a Sikh temple in the county that took turns cooking for and feeding about 125 people every day. We could only do it three or four times a year, while some of the big churches did it every six weeks. I loved doing that. This wasn't about some faraway land, it was about people a few towns from where we lived who needed our direct help.

But I did know atheist coworkers who also fed the homeless, one of them even through a church nearby his house, even though he did not believe any of it. It's the people, not their religion that do good, although often it's facilitated by a church or other organization.
I'm glad you found a church you like! The amount of time and money people give to a charity definitely depends on a cultural awareness of needs. Some churches do a better job than others.

Your poor sister! In the 1970's, there was so much stigma. Everything was put on appearances and reality was ignored. My parents got divorce in the 70's and I remember thinking that we were the only people in our neighborhood with parents divorcing. In my teenage mind, I thought there was little sympathy and a lot of shameful.

Your brother-in-law reminds me of "It Started in Naples." It's about a Philadelphia man abandoned his wife to move to Capri and fathered a son. Ten years go by and the Philadelphia man dies so his brother comes to settle his affairs. He tells an Italian lawyer that his brother said to his wife, "he was just going out for a beer." The Italian lawyer (played by Vittorio De Sica) saids "I'm sure he had that beer! While it's funny in the movie, not so funny in real life.

BTW - When I lived in Little Ferry, I looked at a wedding venue in Patterson. I couldn't believe Patterson - it looked like a war torn country.
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Old 02-22-2024, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,759 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
You’re just frustrated because you have no valid complaint.
Right, because anyone who disagrees with you does not have a valid opinion. Moderator cut: rude personal insult

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 02-23-2024 at 12:34 PM.. Reason: personal attack
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Old 02-23-2024, 02:03 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Because you project that your church does all that, when in reality it's probably a very small number of church members involved. I see it as sort of false advertising.
It is the entire church that supports and enables the work, Phet. You are indicting the "entire body of the church" because only those members who are the "hands and feet" of the "body" do the actual work???? Do you think that is reasonable?
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Old 02-28-2024, 05:13 AM
 
9 posts, read 1,365 times
Reputation: 29
I think prayers work because of the changes that go on when I do this activity.
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Old 02-28-2024, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
Reputation: 9910
Quote:
Originally Posted by fueLo.0 View Post
I think prayers work because of the changes that go on when I do this activity.
Maybe that's a valid association, or maybe it's motivated reasoning and/or confirmation bias. The whole point of the scientific method is to try to disassociate observations and their interpretation from what one wants, wishes or needs to see/believe. Humans, apart from some such discipline, are very prone to making improper associations.

Whenever the scientific method has been applied to results where people were praying for an outcome vs not praying, no significant difference was observed.

I am not picking on Christianity, either. Studies of near death experiences, homeopathy, traditional Chinese medicine, chiropractic, etc., are all unfavorable or indeterminate with regard to what these practices are supposed to accomplish and what millions of people believe they accomplish. People have a good experience with, say, homeopathy, and swear by it ... attributing to homeopathy, the results of a fortunate happenstance and/or placebo effects and other psychological factors. Happens every day.
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Old 02-29-2024, 01:26 PM
 
32 posts, read 19,404 times
Reputation: 93
Why is it an issue?
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Old 03-12-2024, 04:25 AM
 
3,372 posts, read 1,961,338 times
Reputation: 11795
I think prayer is similar to positive thinking. Sometimes if we truly believe that something will happen, we'll subconsciously make changes in our lives that can bring about what we were hoping for.
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