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Old 12-30-2023, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
He did not say anything to contradict your church sign.
He said: "God does listen to prayers but only the prayers of the righteous you may have 10,000 people praying but only a few are truly righteous therefore only a few are heard."
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Old 12-30-2023, 12:55 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,459 posts, read 3,911,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
He said: "God does listen to prayers but only the prayers of the righteous you may have 10,000 people praying but only a few are truly righteous therefore only a few are heard."
Logical reasoning is as difficult as getting a prayer answered.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,958 posts, read 13,455,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
He said: "God does listen to prayers but only the prayers of the righteous you may have 10,000 people praying but only a few are truly righteous therefore only a few are heard."
To a fundamentalist, there is no contradiction between god loving all and yet only hearing the prayers of a few. It is, to them, a sort of "tough love" thing; unanswered prayer is a consequence of some other lack or of your need, however dire, being less important than some other thing in god's master plan. "Hm, if Timmy's dog dies RIGHT HERE, this whole plan could work".

Unfortunately there's no way to think this way without victim-blaming or disparaging the worthiness of others. And the other thing they see no conflict, is to exult in god's grace and mercy in miraculously saving them from some disaster, with zero awareness of all the people he at the same time didn't save (survivor of basically any disaster that claimed many lives, left many homeless, etc). They can't seem to see that it's inherently kicking people in deep sorrow when they're down.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:10 PM
 
18,976 posts, read 7,004,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Unfortunately there's no way to think this way without victim-blaming or disparaging the worthiness of others. And the other thing they see no conflict, is to exult in god's grace and mercy in miraculously saving them from some disaster, with zero awareness of all the people he at the same time didn't save (survivor of basically any disaster that claimed many lives, left many homeless, etc). They can't seem to see that it's inherently kicking people in deep sorrow when they're down.
Except that maybe it's not about us.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
28,090 posts, read 29,940,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seethelight View Post
So, God apparently didn't seem to hear the prayers of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, so why does anyone think that God will really grant you the new job you were hoping to get? REALLY? Shouldn't people just say that they were hoping to get the new job rather than try and use God to grant their requests?
I suppose it gets down to what you mean by "work." If you mean, "Does the genie always come out of the bottle and fulfill your wish?", then no, prayers don't work.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,443 posts, read 61,360,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
He said: "God does listen to prayers but only the prayers of the righteous you may have 10,000 people praying but only a few are truly righteous therefore only a few are heard."
And, you said:
you saw a sign that said: "God loves all people equally".

Is there some part of this you are missing?

I believe that God does love all peoples.

James 5:16b ... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:23 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,459 posts, read 3,911,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
To a fundamentalist, there is no contradiction between god loving all and yet only hearing the prayers of a few. It is, to them, a sort of "tough love" thing; unanswered prayer is a consequence of some other lack or of your need, however dire, being less important than some other thing in god's master plan. "Hm, if Timmy's dog dies RIGHT HERE, this whole plan could work".

Unfortunately there's no way to think this way without victim-blaming or disparaging the worthiness of others. And the other thing they see no conflict, is to exult in god's grace and mercy in miraculously saving them from some disaster, with zero awareness of all the people he at the same time didn't save (survivor of basically any disaster that claimed many lives, left many homeless, etc). They can't seem to see that it's inherently kicking people in deep sorrow when they're down.
But if the argument is that God only answers the prayers of the few righteous people who exist, how does one avoid concluding that this is a sign of greater love for those righteous few? The masses must settle for the tough love of an unyielding divine will, which is presumable inferior to God uh altering His will to accommodate a righteous person's prayer. his is without even questioning the premise, a premise that the book of Job would seem to demand should be questioned by Christians.

My goal here is to have two atheists hijack the thread with a debate about 'proper' Christian belief, lol
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:27 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,459 posts, read 3,911,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
And, you said:
you saw a sign that said: "God loves all people equally".

Is there some part of this you are missing?

I believe that God does love all peoples.

James 5:16b ... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.
They're not mutually exclusive only if you believe answering prayers and ignoring prayers to be equally loving acts. Christians can probably justify this by saying that God is demonstrating to the non-righteous that they're not yet in position to have their prayers answered, or whatever. But I don't accept the argument that answering prayer is a neutral display of neither love nor non-love
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Old 12-30-2023, 02:07 PM
 
Location: california
7,322 posts, read 6,920,840 times
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Jesus key words in prayer," Not my will but thy will be done."
A man's selfish prayer has little influence especially in those Not living under Jesus Lordship.
I do not tell God what to do, I endeavor to conform to His plans and seek His intervention in my life as He sees fit.
It is relatively easy to grant the wishes of some one in compliance but in those doing their own thing God is not obligated.
Who you are, or who your parents were, does not have any influence, it is wholly dependent on one's own personal relationship one has in Jesus.
Believing in God is not enough.
Devils believe in God, but they remain damned for their rebellion in heaven, and their continued corruption of man.

As a child in a devoted Christian home, I probably saw more of God's intervention than most preachers did in their whole lifetime, because my parents recognized the relationship with Him came first.
Jesus first word in teaching was repent. this means to turn away from the rebellion one practices and turn to compliance to God on a personal level, not just the letter of the law.
Jesus said, "Blessed are they that do hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled."
This is an appetite one cultures to need to please God. and this I do because I recognize all the wonderful things He does for me, even before and beyond what I have asked. The more I seek His instruction and do it, the closer we get.

God obligates Himself to those that are actually His, or actually want to be His. I know plenty of folks that call them selves Christian but they neither seek God's will nor have reverence for Him, as though He is only aware of them when they pray.
Clue, God cannot be unaware of you.
When I asked Jesus in my heart at age 7, the very first thing I realized is God's presents everywhere. This I knew before I learned any scriptures that taught this information.
I have known folks that came from some pretty rough environments, and their desperation for God was/is real and God revealed Him self in their lives often and radically.
God has honored some prayers from those weak in faith, but I believe that others of faith were adding their concerns as well for that persons sake.
It may seem sometimes that God does make some exception in certain cases, because we all still have a choice to turn our life around, but God does not force any one.
Because my perspective of a given situation might be limited, I know God perspective is infinite, so though I pray in urgency, but I have to be patient, knowing He knows best.
Sometimes One is inspired to pray for strangers in very specific terms, called intercessory prayer. The "Holy Spirit" Jesus alone provides teaches one how to pray.
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Old 12-30-2023, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,443 posts, read 61,360,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
But if the argument is that God only answers the prayers of the few righteous people who exist, how does one avoid concluding that this is a sign of greater love for those righteous few?
God is referred to as the 'rock'. Unmovable.

People are notoriously moveable, blown about by every wind of religious doctrine.

Some people choose to be close to God, but most people do not.

Joseph led his people to Eqypt, where they lived for 400 years. During that 400 years, many of the Hebrews prayed to be delivered from Eqypt [as they continued to worship Eqyptian deities].

A Hebrew who was living in Eqypt, worshipping Egyptian deities and observing all the Eqyptian festivals to Ra, Geb, Nut, Shu, Osiris, Isis, Set, Nephthys, and Horus. Yet expecting Elohim to rescue?

That would be like today, somebody who prays to Daddy god, Mommy god, uncle ghosty god, and Baby Infant god, who expects Elohim to rescue.



Quote:
... a premise that the book of Job would seem to demand should be questioned by Christians.
I really like the book of Job. I do not know what it is that you feel should be questioned on the basis of Job's life.

Job was consumed by a fear, that fear won out and it destroyed his life. Then we have 38 chapters of his horrible friends interrogating him, and finally, the whirlwind speaks and tells Job how to be released from his fear.
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