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Old 01-04-2024, 10:20 AM
 
1 posts, read 281 times
Reputation: 12

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The Navajo Nation's request for consultation with NASA regarding the sending of human remains to the moon does not equate to a claim on the celestial body itself. Such an argument is a misunderstanding of the Nation's stance and cultural beliefs. The Navajo Nation, like many indigenous peoples, holds the moon in high regard due to its significant role in their spirituality and way of life.

For the Navajo people, as well as other tribal nations, the moon is an integral part of their ceremonies and cultural narratives. It is not simply a matter of religious belief but a cornerstone of their cultural identity and practices. The lunar cycles are closely observed and respected, playing a role in the timing of traditional ceremonies and agricultural practices. The moon is a symbol of the night and is associated with various aspects of Navajo cosmology and worldview.
Furthermore, the Navajo people, like many other indigenous cultures, have a profound respect for the dead and maintain strict taboos surrounding death. Interacting with the dead or places associated with them is avoided, as it is believed to upset the natural order and can bring harm to the living. The concept of placing human remains on the moon is deeply troubling to the Navajo because it could transform a sacred space into what could be perceived as a graveyard, which is not only uncomfortable but also counter to their cultural norms.

It is crucial to recognize that the Navajo are not trying to impede scientific progress. Instead, they are asking for respect and consideration for their cultural practices and beliefs. The Navajo Nation is requesting NASA to honor its commitment to consult with tribal nations on matters that affect them, as was promised after the 1998 incident involving Eugene Shoemaker's remains.

This request is in line with the broader principle of respecting indigenous rights and practices. Imagine if another group were told how to practice their religion or if their sacred spaces were unilaterally used without consultation or consent. There would likely be a significant outcry, and rightfully so. The same respect and rights should be extended to the Navajo Nation and other indigenous peoples.

The executive order requiring tribal consultation on issues that affect tribes, reaffirmed by a presidential memorandum from President Biden in 2021, underscores the importance of such dialogue. It is not just a matter of cultural sensitivity but also a legal obligation. The Navajo Nation is not seeking ownership of the moon; they are asking for their voices to be heard and for their cultural practices to be respected in accordance with established protocols and commitments.
The Navajo Nation's opposition to sending human remains to the moon is based on deeply held cultural beliefs and the desire for respect and consultation. It is not an attempt to claim the moon or hinder scientific progress. The Navajo Nation simply seeks compliance with the promises made by NASA and the U.S. government to consult with them on matters that profoundly affect their cultural and spiritual beliefs.

Additionally, on a personal note, Europeans have taken everything away from tribes including the Navajo Nation and the government and people forced Christianity and Catholicism on them killing thousands if they did not believe it. Not to mention they were brutally punished for speaking their language in boarding school. After everything they have endured, all they have left is their culture and traditions. They are the poorest of Americans with little to no support from the government and what I see is people are suggesting just because they have excess money to spend they can send their dead ones to another celestial body because they can and disregard thousands of years of culture and traditions? That is the most insensitive argument I have ever seen. No religion in the world says to bury your dead on the moon. Indigenous people have held a connection to this celestial body since time immemorial. Everyone is correct, nobody owns the moon so what gives anyone the right to send anything up there? Just leave it alone.

 
Old 01-04-2024, 10:45 AM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
You do realize that even on Star Trek, if a civilization wanted to blow up its own moon, they wouldn't stop them, right?

That said, the Navajo Nation does not own the moon. They have no right to decide who can or cannot visit it.
They are not trying to dictate to NASA, just make them aware of the impact on the Navajo people of what they propose to do on the moon in case they were not cognizant of it.
 
Old 01-04-2024, 12:02 PM
 
966 posts, read 512,238 times
Reputation: 2504
From a scientific standpoint, doing this makes no sense at all. I'm stumped as to why they would do it? Does this symbolize something to someone at NASA? How exactly does this advance scientific understanding?

Maybe it's just the obvious. Sending people to the moon is a very expensive and hazardous undertaking. If someone were to die, the fallout would be immense (and you can kiss that big 'ol space budget goodbye). So sending someone up who is technically, like, already dead, avoids that pesky issue.
 
Old 01-04-2024, 12:17 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenMM View Post
From a scientific standpoint, doing this makes no sense at all. I'm stumped as to why they would do it? Does this symbolize something to someone at NASA? How exactly does this advance scientific understanding?

Maybe it's just the obvious. Sending people to the moon is a very expensive and hazardous undertaking. If someone were to die, the fallout would be immense (and you can kiss that big 'ol space budget goodbye). So sending someone up who is technically, like, already dead, avoids that pesky issue.
There is no scientific objective to doing such a thing, IMO.
 
Old 01-04-2024, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
Reputation: 9910
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenMM View Post
From a scientific standpoint, doing this makes no sense at all. I'm stumped as to why they would do it? Does this symbolize something to someone at NASA? How exactly does this advance scientific understanding?

Maybe it's just the obvious. Sending people to the moon is a very expensive and hazardous undertaking. If someone were to die, the fallout would be immense (and you can kiss that big 'ol space budget goodbye). So sending someone up who is technically, like, already dead, avoids that pesky issue.
I would assume that a commercial enterprise has rented spare payload capacity on some probe that is either going to land or crash on the moon, and their business model is to get people to pay to send some of their ashes up there when space is available. Just because they can, or it makes them feel privileged or special, I suppose.

I'm not saying it's not grody and dumb. But I'm baffled that anyone really cares.
 
Old 01-04-2024, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
Reputation: 9910
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahasteen View Post
The Navajo Nation's request for consultation with NASA regarding the sending of human remains to the moon does not equate to a claim on the celestial body itself. Such an argument is a misunderstanding of the Nation's stance and cultural beliefs. The Navajo Nation, like many indigenous peoples, holds the moon in high regard due to its significant role in their spirituality and way of life.

For the Navajo people, as well as other tribal nations, the moon is an integral part of their ceremonies and cultural narratives. It is not simply a matter of religious belief but a cornerstone of their cultural identity and practices. The lunar cycles are closely observed and respected, playing a role in the timing of traditional ceremonies and agricultural practices. The moon is a symbol of the night and is associated with various aspects of Navajo cosmology and worldview.
Furthermore, the Navajo people, like many other indigenous cultures, have a profound respect for the dead and maintain strict taboos surrounding death. Interacting with the dead or places associated with them is avoided, as it is believed to upset the natural order and can bring harm to the living. The concept of placing human remains on the moon is deeply troubling to the Navajo because it could transform a sacred space into what could be perceived as a graveyard, which is not only uncomfortable but also counter to their cultural norms.

It is crucial to recognize that the Navajo are not trying to impede scientific progress. Instead, they are asking for respect and consideration for their cultural practices and beliefs. The Navajo Nation is requesting NASA to honor its commitment to consult with tribal nations on matters that affect them, as was promised after the 1998 incident involving Eugene Shoemaker's remains.

This request is in line with the broader principle of respecting indigenous rights and practices. Imagine if another group were told how to practice their religion or if their sacred spaces were unilaterally used without consultation or consent. There would likely be a significant outcry, and rightfully so. The same respect and rights should be extended to the Navajo Nation and other indigenous peoples.

The executive order requiring tribal consultation on issues that affect tribes, reaffirmed by a presidential memorandum from President Biden in 2021, underscores the importance of such dialogue. It is not just a matter of cultural sensitivity but also a legal obligation. The Navajo Nation is not seeking ownership of the moon; they are asking for their voices to be heard and for their cultural practices to be respected in accordance with established protocols and commitments.
The Navajo Nation's opposition to sending human remains to the moon is based on deeply held cultural beliefs and the desire for respect and consultation. It is not an attempt to claim the moon or hinder scientific progress. The Navajo Nation simply seeks compliance with the promises made by NASA and the U.S. government to consult with them on matters that profoundly affect their cultural and spiritual beliefs.

Additionally, on a personal note, Europeans have taken everything away from tribes including the Navajo Nation and the government and people forced Christianity and Catholicism on them killing thousands if they did not believe it. Not to mention they were brutally punished for speaking their language in boarding school. After everything they have endured, all they have left is their culture and traditions. They are the poorest of Americans with little to no support from the government and what I see is people are suggesting just because they have excess money to spend they can send their dead ones to another celestial body because they can and disregard thousands of years of culture and traditions? That is the most insensitive argument I have ever seen. No religion in the world says to bury your dead on the moon. Indigenous people have held a connection to this celestial body since time immemorial. Everyone is correct, nobody owns the moon so what gives anyone the right to send anything up there? Just leave it alone.
I totally agree that NASA / the government needs to live up to its commitments to indigenous people, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks of them.

I also totally agree that commercial enterprises shipping cremains to the moon is unseemly.

Realistically, at some point, there will be permanent installations on the Moon, and then settlements, and people will be buried there in local cemeteries, as they are in human communities anywhere. Some of those people will likely be indigenous. I wonder how that will get incorporated into indigenous culture?
 
Old 01-04-2024, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
Reputation: 9910
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
You do realize that even on Star Trek, if a civilization wanted to blow up its own moon, they wouldn't stop them, right?

That said, the Navajo Nation does not own the moon. They have no right to decide who can or cannot visit it.
I can see something like effectively giving a concession to some opportunistic business shipping ashes to the Moon ... something that there's not an actual need for other then a few rich people's self-aggrandizement ... could be refrained from out of consideration for others.
 
Old 01-04-2024, 08:17 PM
 
529 posts, read 181,581 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
You do realize that even on Star Trek, if a civilization wanted to blow up its own moon, they wouldn't stop them, right?

That said, the Navajo Nation does not own the moon. They have no right to decide who can or cannot visit it.
Project AA119 was a top secret program in 1958 to detonate a hydrogen bomb on the moon for scientific study during the cold war, but it's main purpose was to show America's capabilities to the Soviet Union during the space race of the 1950's and 60's. The Soviet Union also had similar plans (project E-4), but decided not to for fear of a nuclear explosion on Earth if the warhead rocket failed and returned to Earth. This is pretty scary stuff for people that want to do whatever they want on the moon.

You really missed the point though my dear, could you imagine looking up at the moon each night and see that someone spray painted extremely large numbers on it like this (666). Your friend the devil is on the moon for everyone to see on Earth, but it's ok, because no one owns the moon and you have no right to tell anyone what they can or can't do even if it offends your religion. Can you relate to the Navajo concern now? I hope so. It would be so cheesy for anyone to make the moon a big billboard because they have the money to do it.

Last edited by High.priestess.Sarah; 01-04-2024 at 09:01 PM..
 
Old 01-05-2024, 03:10 PM
 
529 posts, read 181,581 times
Reputation: 241
Full Moon Ceremony
https://youtu.be/WP2tKLNg2ak?si=yXYgIKg6iTLY10IF

From Asian culture marking the New year with the first New moon, to Judaism, Islam, European Celtic Paganism, Greek and Roman Mythology, Egyptian, voodoo, and Native American culture; the moon is a global and universal Sacred object of all religions. That is why it is so revered and special to so many people in our world. She is known by many names: Mawa, Selene, Luna, Artemis, Hecate, and so many more.

When the Navajo Nation brought up concerns about showing disrespect to a culture, it was not just a Navajo issue, but an issue for all of humanity of all cultures worldwide that has a spiritual connection to our sister in the sky.


Moon Chant
https://youtu.be/6rVPjrGT54U?si=5o5Gg1zO7iCUc6c6

Sisters of the moon Full Moon Chant
https://youtu.be/fMoupCGttF4?si=8q6KKC1j9bx7ex_u

African Moon Chant
https://youtu.be/YqblVmRbVVE?si=edMw_JSiq2qmjDap

The Moon represents my heart
https://youtu.be/-B5gAczFJps?si=CQmaa9Te_R9mCaCH

Diana Goddess of the hunt & moon
https://youtu.be/YqblVmRbVVE?si=edMw_JSiq2qmjDap

Last edited by High.priestess.Sarah; 01-05-2024 at 04:34 PM..
 
Old 01-05-2024, 06:21 PM
 
79 posts, read 21,681 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by High.priestess.Sarah View Post
Thanks for your concern on the matter Baptist Fundie, just to let you know, right or wrong, Navajo Nation President Buu Nygren has a good point you should consider. I only talked about my personal opinions about this article but will show you why it's desecration to put ashes on a sacred object. First I have to ask you what does the moon mean to you? Is it just a big rock in the sky that circles our Earth, or is it like a Global monument like mount Rushmore or the grand Canyon. Does it have a religious meaning to you like part of your Christian God's creation?

With the exception of the moon being a big rock in the sky you have to limit what you are able to do and not do on the Moon's surface. Let's just take the belief the moon has no religious or world identity and if it's just a big rock in the sky we can do whatever we want to it as long as we don't destroy it. If that's the case, I'm rich and going to hire a private space company to paint a big face of Taylor Swift on our moon facing the Earth and write "Taylor Swift Rules" for the whole world to see because she is so awesome! The moon is not sacred or a monument so why should I care if it hurts feelings. What if someone wanted to write "EAT At ARBY'S" or paint "666" on the moon, they don't need to consult with anyone because after all, it's just a big rock in the sky right! That's why we need laws to protect the sanctity of the moon because it has so many different meanings to different people.

Right now we have laws in America protecting Religion, Race, Age, Gender, and equality for all. There are some places that you can't have a burial or cremation at. If a vet wants to be buried or cremated in the front lawn of the White House. That's not going to happen even if they love their country, served honorably and want to be buried there. That is a National designated space that can't accept burials there.

The moon needs to be a designated a world monument to restrict what a person can and can't do on the moon. Who gave NASA authority to designate a burial, urn or ashes scattering place on the moon and what if a person wanted to build a golf course on top of that burial site. No one owns the moon so how can you stop someone from desecrating a sacred space.

We need to start having these discussions like these and I'm glad that Buu Nygren brought this issue up to protect the sanctity of our moon and protect it's special status as a celestial object and not someone's private rock in the sky.

The final thing I want to mention is that the television series Star Trek had a prime directive to allow planets, civilizations, and celestial objects to evolve on their own with as little interference to avoid any catastrophic damage to the natural development of each ecosystem and civilization forming on it's own. That is why I don't think the Navajo president was not arrogant when he voiced his concerns to NASA.
We should have updated regulations for what we can and can't do on the moon. Since the moon is essentially an international matter, no one nation should dictate what the policy should be. With that said, I will be addressing this issue within the context of this discussion, which it pertains to the US only.

I think there should be regulations but it should not be based on religious reasons. No one particular religion is above any other religion. This country, as you said, has laws protecting freedom of religion. The most important thing about the 1st Ammendment is that it protects the freedom of religion from the government and prevents it from favoring one religion over the others. And this is where the complications of having a policy based on religious reasons begins. The moon is sacred to numerous religions and cultures. The government cannot make laws/policies that prevents people from practicing their religion due to the religious beliefs being different and/or goes against the beliefs of a different religion. This means that it's unconstitutional to prohibit a particular group of people from performing their religious rituals because it is considered as being offensive to another group of people who practice a different religion. Both religious groups have the right to hold the moon as being sacred in accordance to their religious beliefs. It's a violation of the right of freedom of religion for not allowing someone to have their remains on the moon if that is a belief of their religion. No one particular religious group has the right to prevent another religious group from practicing their religion if they are not violating any private property laws.

So no, the Navajo Nation President doesn't have a good point. Because of the reasons that was given, it is a form of religious discrimination and unconstitutional. It goes against the idea of freedom of religion.
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