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Old 01-07-2024, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,717 posts, read 13,265,101 times
Reputation: 9709

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
All Catholics seem to believe that. The church must teach you that.

There were other churches before the Roman church took hold, you know. There were Syrian churches that had no connection with Rome, and there were the churches in Greece and Turkey, the latter of which was where the term "Christians" was first used. Then you had the Mar Thoma Christians in Kerala, India, to whom Christianity was brought by the apostle Thomas, and who only had the Gospel of Thomas, a collection of Jesus's sayings, until the 15th century when Portuguese Catholics showed up, found them with crosses decorated with elephants and treated them badly for not being under the thumb of Rome when they may well have predated the Vatican.

I am not Catholic, but I am not anti-Catholic, either. However, it is clear that some Catholics are not taught accurately about the history of Christianity.
Just as fundamentalists have habitual ways to ignore or rationalize inconvenient facts, I have zero doubt that Catholics (the minority that are aware of, and paying attention to, the outliers you mentioned) have ways to see them outside their claimed unbroken lineage of popes. Or as my tribe used to put it, "our weaker brothers in Christ". They make a great deal of that linkage back to Peter, to whom the legends state that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom. It is of course not an independently verifiable claim that this occurred, and even the Church, which has everything to gain by claiming that some bone fragments you can glimpse through a tiny hole in a wall deep beneath St. Peter's reveal (at squinting distance) the bones of St Peter himself, does not go that far, saying only that it might be and it can't be proven that it isn't.

Which, I note in discussion with a Catholic apologist on another site, is a common gambit in their apologetics: miracles are by definition rare, but you can't claim that they can't ever happen, and there's circumstantial evidence and third-hand accounts that they did, so ... you can't dismiss holy writ because it reports miracles. There's a convoluted mechanism they propose whereby Moses could have authored the Pentateuch before Hebrew was even a language and yet it could be accurately transmitted to us in Hebrew, therefore, it may be that Moses actually is an historical figure and the Exodus might have happened, despite the lack of archaeological evidence for same. The gospel of Luke accurately uses a very specific label for a political district in a specific area of Asia Minor, so despite that it's arcane to us and was likely common knowledge to the author of Luke, this proves that Luke is a reliable reporter of accurate historical events, and since miracles reported COULD have happened that doesn't detract from it. I mean, it is maddening talking to these people (and doubtless, maddening for them to talk to us).

 
Old 01-07-2024, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,957 posts, read 83,789,860 times
Reputation: 114140
^I had not heard of that Moses/Hebrew theory and I think I'm OK with not exploring that further.

Interestingly, in Diarmaid Macculloch's history of Christianity, he acknowledges that there does seem to be some documentation about Peter's bones and tthat his original gravesite was commonly known before it was moved to its present location. I can't recall all the details, and right now I am about 300 miles from my bookshelf.

But we are pretty darn sure Peter did not go to Rome, put on a big hat and sit down in a fancy chair in a basilica named for him. It took centuries for the office of Pope to develop into what it is now. Meanwhile, the church did grow and thrive elsewhere.
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Old 01-07-2024, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,288,551 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This thread invites accusing Christians of not being Christian which is not allowed on this forum and it should be closed, IMO.
I agree.

Are Jehovah Witness Christian?
Are Mormons Christian?
Are Presbyterians Christian?

Are people who believe in abortion Christian?

The double standard is stunning
 
Old 01-07-2024, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,957 posts, read 83,789,860 times
Reputation: 114140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I agree.

Are Jehovah Witness Christian?
Are Mormons Christian?
Are Presbyterians Christian?

Are people who believe in abortion Christian?

The double standard is stunning
Stop. There is no double standard, and you are making a false accusation against me and my fellow mod. You have been here long enough to know full well that there is a rule in this forum about claiming a denomination is not Christian that WE established and enforce.

I reviewed the post when one of you first reported it, and the question appeared to be asked in good faith. I have continued to monitor the thread, and it seems it went in a good direction with mostly respectful discussion and provision of information, which is the point of this forum.

If anyone feels the burning desire to affect a sense of offense where it is clear none was intended, take it somewhere else.
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Old 01-07-2024, 03:35 PM
 
63,367 posts, read 39,639,230 times
Reputation: 7772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Stop. There is no double standard, and you are making a false accusation against me and my fellow mod. You have been here long enough to know full well that there is a rule in this forum about claiming a denomination is not Christian that WE established and enforce.

I reviewed the post when one of you first reported it, and the question appeared to be asked in good faith. I have continued to monitor the thread, and it seems it went in a good direction with mostly respectful discussion and provision of information, which is the point of this forum.

If anyone feels the burning desire to affect a sense of offense where it is clear none was intended, take it somewhere else.
Thanks, MQ. That is all I was concerned about. Glad you are monitoring it.
 
Old 01-07-2024, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,288,551 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Stop. There is no double standard, and you are making a false accusation against me and my fellow mod. You have been here long enough to know full well that there is a rule in this forum about claiming a denomination is not Christian that WE established and enforce.

I reviewed the post when one of you first reported it, and the question appeared to be asked in good faith. I have continued to monitor the thread, and it seems it went in a good direction with mostly respectful discussion and provision of information, which is the point of this forum.

If anyone feels the burning desire to affect a sense of offense where it is clear none was intended, take it somewhere else.
Unknown to me, it would appear that if I say it politely and diplomatically, I can present the notion that a particular sect or denomination may not be Christian.

Just because those who are participating in this thread appear to be ok, doesn't mean there are many more watching, who are offended.

Frankly, I'm all for a free for all of ideas.
But this still strikes me as a double standard.
 
Old 01-08-2024, 05:55 AM
 
Location: U.S.A.
19,578 posts, read 20,019,868 times
Reputation: 28598
Catholics follow their own traditions, which are contradictory to the bible.
 
Old 01-08-2024, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Arizona
8,214 posts, read 8,531,914 times
Reputation: 27468
Quote:
Originally Posted by D217 View Post
Catholics follow their own traditions, which are contradictory to the bible.
The bible is only part of it. No sola scriptura for us.
 
Old 01-08-2024, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Arizona
8,214 posts, read 8,531,914 times
Reputation: 27468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
All Catholics seem to believe that. The church must teach you that.

There were other churches before the Roman church took hold, you know. There were Syrian churches that had no connection with Rome, and there were the churches in Greece and Turkey, the latter of which was where the term "Christians" was first used. Then you had the Mar Thoma Christians in Kerala, India, to whom Christianity was brought by the apostle Thomas, and who only had the Gospel of Thomas, a collection of Jesus's sayings, until the 15th century when Portuguese Catholics showed up, found them with crosses decorated with elephants and treated them badly for not being under the thumb of Rome when they may well have predated the Vatican.

I am not Catholic, but I am not anti-Catholic, either. However, it is clear that some Catholics are not taught accurately about the history of Christianity.
All Catholics are not Roman Catholics. The "Oriental" churches are Catholic and ARE under the pope. I think there are about 24 of them.

Some of them are, Eritrean, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar and Macedonian.

When they get a new pope you will see them. They dress quite differently from the Roman Catholics.
 
Old 01-08-2024, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,957 posts, read 83,789,860 times
Reputation: 114140
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkalot View Post
All Catholics are not Roman Catholics. The "Oriental" churches are Catholic and ARE under the pope. I think there are about 24 of them.

Some of them are, Eritrean, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar and Macedonian.

When they get a new pope you will see them. They dress quite differently from the Roman Catholics.
True. I was referring to the RCC but it's good to point out that there are non-Roman Catholic churches.
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