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Old 01-10-2024, 09:23 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 29 days ago)
 
18,781 posts, read 6,831,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
It's a case of "No True Scotsman".

Many in the evangelical camp only count somebody as a "Christian" who meets a certain subjective threshold since for them, the word "Christian" is synonymous with "a person who is definitely going to heaven when they die".

Others will concede that there is no objective way to determine any particular individual's eternal destination, so to make such a determination about the state of another person's soul seems just a bit presumptuous...
Is there not a basic standard for one to believe in order to be a Christian?

 
Old 01-10-2024, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Is there not a basic standard for one to believe in order to be a Christian?
Sure; but are you defining "Christian" as "self-identified Christ-follower" or "one predestined for salvation"?
 
Old 01-10-2024, 10:40 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,747 posts, read 17,322,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
We know he went to Rome, a 1st century letter from the elders in Rome told us he died there. It did not say he was a pope, and as it was telling the people in Corinth to behave, we can be very confident popes did not exist in the 1st century, otherwise they would have used Papal authority for this. It is also probable bishops did not exist, despite the letter allegedly being written by an alleged bishop.

Catholicism in it's early form may not have existed until the 2nd century AD, but it is still one of the earliest existing Christian sects.
I believe the Papal structure was in place during Irenaous' time as he was summoned to Rome by the Bishop.
That would have been around 200AD give or take.
 
Old 01-10-2024, 11:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
We know he went to Rome, a 1st century letter from the elders in Rome told us he died there. It did not say he was a pope, and as it was telling the people in Corinth to behave, we can be very confident popes did not exist in the 1st century, otherwise they would have used Papal authority for this. It is also probable bishops did not exist, despite the letter allegedly being written by an alleged bishop.

Catholicism in it's early form may not have existed until the 2nd century AD, but it is still one of the earliest existing Christian sects.
Catholics are Christian, period! The confusion and discord result from the erroneous focus on what to BELIEVE ABOUT Jesus instead of just BELIEVING IN HIM as the human embodiment of God's Holy Spirit! Misidentifying God's Holy Spirit with the ramblings and interpretations of our primitive ancestors in scripture has been the source of all the discord and confusion. Jesus alone is the Word of God (Logos) and He alone is the Truth, the Way, and the Life. Getting to know Jesus as HE PRESENTED HIMSELF on the Cross is what defines a Christian, IMO. That is why He wants us to REMEMBER HIM on the Cross! He did NOT institute some supernatural, magical "sacrament," IMO. If we do not remember Him and get into the states of mind associated with His Holy Spirit, we are not "in Christ" (in the "mind of Christ") and are NOT "indwelled" by His Holy Spirit. Any other states of mind block the guidance of His Holy Spirit from our minds.
 
Old 01-10-2024, 02:22 PM
 
Location: NSW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Yes, to paint a totally accurate picture of the whole thing. Many of those who question Catholic's Christendom also question other Christian groups for various reasons. For instance, I grew up in a Church of Christ stronghold area. There were folks among them that believed that you couldn't be saved if you went to an "apostate" church. Which was every church that wasn't actually named "Church of Christ". Doctrine aside. Churches of Christ "set up" is one of autonomous congregations. The ones who took the name thing as a disqualifier to heart usually had a sign outside that said "Church of Christ meets here"....

There were other Churches of Christ who might let your name slide but would have doctrinal disqualifiers.

For instance, Baptists weren't saved because they didn't get Baptized with the knowledge that Bapitism is what did save them.

Sorry for belaboring the point and for picking on the CofC... but Catholics aren't alone in this exercise.
Interesting perspective, and I am very aware of the Church/es of Christ groups.
Apart from baptism being necessary for salvation, they are not that much different to other Evangelical groups, other than their Restoration Movement claims of returning to being a 1st Century church.
And yes I am aware that Catholics are not the sole denomination that attracts the attention of other Christians.
The fact it is so large worldwide though probably draws more scrutiny than others.
I’m also always amazed too that Evangelical Protestants are so interested in the Pope, and the Catholic church hierarchical structure.
They then state that Roman Catholicism “is the church of men, and not God” as one of their main concerns.
Really?
The last time I looked most so-called independent churches still had a male pastor to lead them too.
The fact is most Catholics don’t give 2 hoots about the pope either.
He’s just a man, just like any pastor, Catholics are not that silly to think otherwise.
 
Old 01-10-2024, 03:44 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 29 days ago)
 
18,781 posts, read 6,831,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Sure; but are you defining "Christian" as "self-identified Christ-follower" or "one predestined for salvation"?
Does it matter how we define those things?
 
Old 01-10-2024, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,235 posts, read 2,434,259 times
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Of COURSE Catholics are Christians!

Do they believe Jesus was the Son of God?
Do they believe the way to salvation is to follow Jesus?

Yes and yes. Done!

You can disagree with Catholic theology all you want (and I do) but this idea that they're not Christians is a fundamentalist Protestant thing used to further divide people and stir up sectarian animosity. As the old saying goes, "Two Protestants is a sect, three Protestants is a schism."
 
Old 01-10-2024, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Alabama
13,382 posts, read 7,701,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Does it matter how we define those things?
For the purposes of this thread topic, yes absolutely.
 
Old 01-10-2024, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,042 posts, read 83,879,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
We know he went to Rome, a 1st century letter from the elders in Rome told us he died there. It did not say he was a pope, and as it was telling the people in Corinth to behave, we can be very confident popes did not exist in the 1st century, otherwise they would have used Papal authority for this. It is also probable bishops did not exist, despite the letter allegedly being written by an alleged bishop.

Catholicism in it's early form may not have existed until the 2nd century AD, but it is still one of the earliest existing Christian sects.
That may have been confusing on my part. I wasn't saying Peter never went to Rome at all, just that he didn't go there and do the things that followed, tongue-in-cheek, in my sentence.

I do believe he was in Rome and died there.
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Old 01-10-2024, 05:02 PM
 
63,424 posts, read 39,679,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Does it matter how we define those things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
For the purposes of this thread topic, yes absolutely.
No it does NOT! It is the ignorance of humanity that anyone thinks our salvation is up to us. It is not and never was. It is entirely the work of Jesus who is God incarnate. That is why He was to become one of us from the very foundation of creation! What WE BECOME is up to us, not our salvation. That depends entirely on OUR choices in this life. Believing Jesus will either have an impact on that or not!

God IS Spirit. God IS Holy. Ergo, the Holy Spirit IS God. Believing that Jesus represents God's Holy Spirit in a human is what defines a Christian, NOT any "precepts and doctrines of men." Misidentifying the Holy Spirit as the scriptures instead of Jesus is and has been the primary failure of dogma, IMO.
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